Episode · 1 year ago

Mouth-Off Episode 19: The Three Principles of Innate Health, Mind, Thought & Consciousness with Sali Curtis


On today’s episode of Mouth-Off I will be chatting to my good friend SALI CURTIS. Sali wears many hats - Mum, lesbian, wife, Speech and Language therapist, singer/songwriter, and a practitioner of the Three Principles of Innate Health, Mind, Thought & Consciousness

We had a great time deconstructing the THREE PRINCIPLES – with Sali giving us insight into her own personal journey with innate health and wholeness. We also discuss a range of other interlinking topics from parenting, sexuality, religion, musical inspiration, and mental health.

NB - the music tracks included in this podcast are used for the purpose of critque and analysis.


Intro Music - music by Clary Saddler 

Too Deep – written by Saddler, performed by Cwtch 

Three Principles Animation – by Banks, edited by Coach Café [taken from YouTube]

Do our THOUGHTS Shape our REALITY – by Mara Gleason

Stop – written by Curtis, performed by Cwtch

Full Moon - written by Saddler, performed by Cwtch

ABRACADABRA – written by Miller, performed by Steve Miller Band 

Unstoppable – written by La Havis, performed by Lianne La Havis

Outro Music - music by Clary Saddler 

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Welcome to mouth of a podcast for and about marginalized groups. I'm Clarie Sadler and so far on the series I've interviewed a range of people from all walks of life whom I consider, in some capacity, to represent marginalized groups. On today's episode I'll be interviewing my very good friend Sally Curtis. Sally is a professional manager for adult acute speech and language therapy services at Coumta Moreganu University Health Board. Sally and I've been playing music and writing songs together since about two thousand and three. We actually formed a band called Kutch, which we are still in on an overseas trip around the world. I know Ye're thinking the same. In naggio shows falling back ring, relax and play O it's do it and gets sleep before every time something new. But the oceans blue prime. Just do it again. Think it's ALF sleep before to get to the as well as being a musician and speech terrifist, Sally practices the three principles and she's going to be talking about that today. The three principles were first described by Scottish weldners, Sydney banks, in one thousand nine hundred and seventy three and they were described as three key factors which interact to form people's psychological experience. The three principles, or three pieces that are often called are the universal mind, thought and consciousness. What is mine? Consciousness, thought, mind, intelligence of all things. Consciousness makes you a weird and thought is like the runner of a ship. It gages through life and if you can learn to use that rather awardly, you can gage your way through life really better than you ever remagine. You can go from one reality to another, you can find your happiness. Okay, Sally Curtis, to welcome to mouth off. Thanks for coming on. So would you mind start starting by introducing yourself? In a nutshell, I guess what you think. How would you first describe yourself? What is your identity? To the first and foremost, I am a forcy two year old female. I was forget Mos a year out here there. What's your female and lesbian mem of to married to a lovely woman, and I am an NHS professional. I guess I'm generally a pretty go with a flow, spontaneous person, although I go with a fly. I wouldn't say I'm flat horizontal. I'm pretty as mover and one of these people that my work colleagues always tell me. I like the things done. So yes, patience has never been my strong point. If I want to do something, I do it and I get it done and I don't look back. I just noticed they when you did that, you started with your age and your gender. Was That just by fluke or is that something that you know, being female, being a lesbian? I mean, I know you were good friends. I've known you a long, long time. You're not someone hang up on age, so I'm guessing that was just the first thing that came to your mind. But are you sort of like female lesbian? Is that a badge of honor you wear first and foremost? Or you know, mum or work, or or is it all of the above? For you? Above, I guess mum is a big part of my life that, but I don't like to Mumsenus is not something that I...

...relate to or aspired to, I guess. And obviously, been a lesbian came along a lot before the kids did. HMM. And Yeah, I get I am proud to be gay and I don't really hide it to anyone. It's been a long time since I did work colleagues, junior colleagues. I think it's good to be a role model and to be confident and and let other people feel comfortable of their own skin, I think especially with young people. So I push my kids friends out. They come Fort Zone quite a lot. My kids obviously do. They don't try to, but they've got gay parents, so it's something that their friends have to get used to. But I know, I was think there's probably one of their friends might be in the closet themselves and hasn't quite figured themselves out. So that's not to be ashamed of these things. I don't, not sure I ever have been. Really. Yeah, so I mentioned in the introduction that, of course, as well as all of the above, you are a musician. Interestingly, didn't mention that we've been singing and play music writing since what about two thousand and three? But we well really on our years, travel abroad, Thailand, Australia, barley. Do you still have a musical identity? Do you think or as it taken more of a form of music you listen to another, other music that inspires you? I always consider you the musician, Terry, carrying me along with you. I've never really called myself and musician, because I feel a bit of a fraud to call myself when I do love music and I do love to sing. At the same time, I wouldn't consider myself a singer, but I like being part of court. As one of your band members feel I can say I told me I can take the badge of one. That was no founding member. I think you came up with a name and then wanted to change it about five years later, saying it's actually a bit childish and we're a stuck with it now. Everyone is equally thrilled and intrigued and curious about the possibility to have more mental freedom, and they do. In the moment. People are experiencing a version of reality according to what to running through their own mind. It's like the mine as a projector so we have thoughts and we project an experience of reality and we feel the realness, cinematic realness, of that movie via the power of our minds. You know where the director of these incredible films that we live in. So I really wanted to get you on to talk about the three principles. So this is something that you have mentioned. I know it's something you came upon a few years ago. That is sort of helped you, I guess, reframe your thinking patterns and, I guess, how you deal, maybe deal with stress or just recognize that it's there and then let it go. I mean, I will probably won't do it justice if I try and try and explain so, I guess to our listeners that don't know what it is or haven't heard of it, you know. Can you tell us a little bit about it and how you first found the three piece, three principles? Okay, n't say really suffered in my mental health over the years, particularly I'm generally quite not person to dwell on things necessarily, but I've always been an overthinker. Sure, always been quite a warrior and get overwhelmed quite easily, I guess, and get irritasted crazily and impatient and short tempered, I guess, but I'm guilt, guilty something that I just felt that was just something that you just do, particularly as a as an adult, and even more so when you become built. Is just something that you are. You know, comes with bowl. I wasn't wasn't brought up in a Catholic family as set, but my family were very much at least to lay the guilt on. We're all raised with that element of guilt if we didn't pull you wait or whatever. So yeah, just constantly carried the gut, more so when I became a M so I still wanted to keep my job, my work as a speech therapist. I manage or one of the Health Boards in Wales to speech to every team and manager it all our in patient services. I've got quite a busy job and I've been quite creative and really since they're not I was parttime when the kids are born, but it didn't gradually work my way back up the full time hours. But try. I always, always carry the guilt. So I've not doing good enoughing work or I'm doing I was doing not you know, not quite doing good,... know, good enough jobs and them and then my work being elected or not doing it is never as a friend or always feeling like I was I was lacking or not really fulfilling my role and there was too much going on in my life. I would just totally get really overwhelmed with Oh my gosh, you know, there's so much to do today, a lot. I just find myself never around, didn't in circles really and then I did. I changed Jo I think had gone from a few really, really busy, busy jobs and then into a promotion I didn't particular want, particularly looking for, but I took it because I needed a job and yeah, it was a step up my first sort of manager we're role that I'd done and it was lovely. Team is a very busy job, but I just really slipped for the worst. I don't know it's the first time, but the worst time. I'd slipped into a really, really bad case of imposter syndrome. So I can relate to that. When I sort of made the transition from actor musician to getting my degree and then getting a job as a secondary school drama teacher, I was constantly sort of feeling inadequate and that I was just sort of playing the role of a grown up and playing the role of a responsible adult and, you know, expected to teach these teenagers, when I really felt like, you know, they were just thinking, what on Earth does she do in here, that actor? What if she's acting the role, what is she going to teach us? You know? S Ye, I can totally relate to that. We've all felt it. But I just really felt like I just I wasn't ready for the job. I shouldn't taken it. I wasn't good enough for my big catually paramid. Everybody could tell. Everybody was like, Oh my God, what's she doing here? I was utterly convinced that I was doing a terrible job and I I just obsessed over it and because I was thinking it, I assumed that was true and the more I thought it, the more I felt I had to analyze it and I would I just got to the point where I was be driving to work and I would literally be honest, in a panic attack. I would be so stressed out, dreading going into work. I'd ring my dad I could barely speak. I was tearfull and anxious and my dad would be like you've got to you know, you've got to go, we've got to tell someone, you've got to talk. True, but I've managed to pull up, drive to work, pull myself together and get through the day just fine and then get home and then I'd be absolutely, you know, exhorted and anxious and I would bend my partner's ear about it and again I'd be utterly convinced all of the things I done badly that day and how everybody, everybody could see it, you know, and there was all this evidence of my sister would say you, it's just in your head cell. I'm sure people don't see the way you see your yourself. was like no, they don't, they do, because someone so said this, so I'm so said Blah, blah, Blah Blah. This is the evidence that is, you know, makes everything true, that I'm just not good enough this job. Yeah, I just got I was really not present with the kids. I was up as early as I could, get into work for seven so I could get a couple more hours in before that everybody else came in and I get home, I'd rush the kids to bed. I'd be really irritable and stressed because I felt I had to do more work to prove myself, and then I would yeah, I'd hardly see the kids and when I did see them I was really snappy and posible and yeah, so just got myself into a bit of it is really and I've never really felt that anxious before. So, yeah, I guess that's the closest I've got to sort of panic attacks and anxiety and depression. I was really lay bill. Yeah, and you know, it felt it was start to the peck my my skins coming out in sort of rashes and I was just feeling it in my body and I really started to have physical side effect. So did you seek out the three PAS, you know, as a way of dealing? Where all? Were you just looking for some you know, some mindfulness or some approaches or meditation or that kind of thing? I thought that what I needed to do. I think what we all tends to think we need to do is to feel better, we need to change our circumstances. So it just made sense to me at the time to make a list of all the things in my outside world that I needed to change in order to make myself feel better. So the first thing I felt I had to change. It was all to do with the job, even though I'd been really stressed and you know, the last couple of jobs previously and I've been really overdoing it and working far too hard. It was certainly I was building myself up to it, but I didn't see that at the time. So I decided to find another job. Was My first plan, and I thought of emotion. So I had been in that job for about a year and a half and I decided to step back down. I didn't think I was good enough. I couldn't hack it. I moved to a different hospital that I worked in before that I was...

...familiar with. It felt good. And then the second thing I felt I needed to do was to learn to be a better parents, because I really felt that I'd I was not a good one. So I went looking for sort of parenting programs because I felt quite ashamed. I just really disconnected from the kids and needed to learn to a better job. I felt like someone had to teach me. So yeah, so I I stumbled across a program on facebook. I don't think it's actually package the same way now, but it was called lighthearted parenting, HMM, and it was by a psychologist on facebook called Nicola Bird, and she just had this to just there was these videos of testimonials and I watched these testimonials of her sort of zoom callings and parents and their kids and I was just like what is going on here? It was just wow. The parents were just like it. Just the feeling was amazing and they just they were talking about complete transformation in the feeling of their household and their relationship with their kids and thought what Earth is going on in this? This sounds amazing. I'd love to know what this is all about. So I showed ran and ran also was curious and we signed up for I think it wasn't loads of many of us. Hundred odd quid both signed up for. So it was essentially taking the philosophies of the three principles and turning it into a sort of package for parents to help help with parenting. Or was it like for the whole family? And then whether it came some for the kids to watch. So so, yeah, we worked through that as a family. I guess one more me for me, but we all work through it. Yeah, so I thought it was going to be sort of strategies. That's what we all think in. We need. We needed a list of things to do, to do one to ourselves and behaviors we need to change to I'm a better person. We all go through our lives reading million oneself help books or, as I like to call them self, helpless books. And Yeah, and it wasn't what expected at all. It was really on. It was a whole ethos of it was three principles or an eight health or whatever. It's got different refer to in different ways. Yeah, and yeah, it was really much more spiritual and sort of solar firming that I expected. It was. It was what I was expecting. It told how was it different to what you expected? In what way? But basically it very much pointed inward. It pointed up stream, not downstream, into yourself. Yeah, in a really, really accessible and tangible way. So, yeah, had a huge impact on me and just really flipped around my relationship the kids and ran particularly ran. Actually, I didn't even think at the time that was necessarily one of the problems, but I realize there was a lot that wasn't right there. And what about work? Did it? Did it help with that stress at all? And Yeah, work, might you know, now I've, since I've kind of discovered this a few years ago, I have gone back to a manager real job again, and I did. It just feel so different. It's not been easy of kind of change jobs in the middle of the covid pandemic managing all our hospital services. So it's not an easy to take on the roll, but just felt so much more comfortable in my own skin. So, you know, outside of the initial I don't know if you'd call it a course, but the initial sort of sessions and work that you did within the family and and that those sort of problems that you want to do overcome early on. Obviously then you realize in they're not problems, you know, and it's about changing, you know, negative patterns of thought and that sort of thing. So I guess how have you implemented them in daily life? Like you know, some people have mantras that they say Ivery Day, some people meditate the first thing in the morning. I last thing at night, or both? I mean, is there a sort of a mindset that you that you say when you get out of bed? Is there a voice that you've sort of switch on when you feel yourself going into that negative place, or is it just an organic thing that you you know, that you've now taken on? So it's it's definitely none of that, because again, that strategies. So yeah, so I guess to explain what what it's all about is as simply as I can, it's it was just it was a understanding of the human mind that a Scottish worlder had a bit of an empiphany in the S. it's really not that long as and he had. His name was Sydney banks...

...and he'd spent his life being he's lived in them northern Canada and he's he was a Scotsman, sort of a supervisor in the welding and he just spent most of his life being depressed and having marital problems and self analysis and criticism and insecurities, and I was just just pretty much normal asn't yeah, and he it was at then the s. There were lots and lots of different psychological approaches coming into fashions at CBT, all the different theory is, you know, all the guess out theories and Young Carl young and all that sort of stuff out. Those loads going on and he didn't none of it. Really watched sat with him. Think he was looking for something, but he just didn't rate all the psychological approaches. But all his friends would go into all these conventions and they were all trying to drag him along and you know, felt there was lots of relationship and worked up to going on so that his friends had tried to encourage him to go to this one workshop by the latest sort of Counselor Guru. And Yeah, his story goes that he booked himself on for his white him and his wife, and then had second thoughts and phones and canceled and booked himself on again. Run through a second thoughts, canceled the court third time, had second thoughts, ran through and they said this is this, Mr Banks. You went along and the workshop was everything he it was, in his eyes, awful. It was one of those sorts of approaches where you just lay all your cards on the table, you have a massive argument, are all your grievances and cry, hit each other and you know that's going to resolve things. And he started the room watching all these partners put each other's hair out, almost literally, and just thought this is ridiculous. It's supposed to be a way to resolve a marriage. And he left him and he sort of Chack. was chatting to a friend in the in the fire, I think in the friend, and he said, I wag you know what I'm going to do my life? I'm so insecure, I'm never going to sort myself out. And this friend just said so do you know insecure? You just think you are. HMM. That was that. And for about three days you just went into this epiphany sort of bubble, just like, oh my Gosh, you just pondered on this this about three days, didn't eat, didn't sleep and just reflected on it and sort of came back in to an understanding about human existence. So and then he tried to took him quite a while to articulate it, but what he thought that was the three principle. It is really fascinating, isn't it? You know, doing research for this interview and I was reading an article by Michael Neil on this very topic and his sort of feeling is that the problem with the question what is what is the sort of essence of the three principles of mind, consciousness and thought, is that people are too tempted to answer with words and he feels words are woefully inadequate for the job. You know, it's beyond words to sort of describe the essence and philosophies behind it and I know words maybe inadequate, but you know, could you try and articulate what it's all about in a nutshell? You know, when you've read did banks descriptions, when you've heard these stories, when you've when you've looked into it yourself, what is it in essence? So it's just a really really I think so many people have tried. It's just same. There's so many different spiritual approaches, but I guess it's just it's been so practically very easy to grasp rather than sounding like some sort of very fairy thing that you just can't quite get your head around. Hm. I mean the crux of it is that human beings tend to suffer because of an understanding of whether experience is coming from. So we're all cultured to believe that our circumstances create our feelings and that's just what we do. So we just assume with the weather's bad, we're going to feel miserable, or if work as stressful, we're going to feel tight, or if someone says something rude to us, we're going to be upset. We just assume we've just that's just the way we've always been. We've interpreted things and that's way humans just tend to see the way things work. So it's an outside in world, and he realized it was the opposite. He realized that it's whatever we think is always what...

...we see. So our experience directly correlates, is always created throughout thinking. HMM, which it? That sounds like, Oh yeah, I know that. When you really truly see that everything, every experience, is thought created without exception. You realize there's so much hope because you're not bound by your experience. GOING BACK TO SID banks. So he described the principle of mind as the energy of all things, whether inform or formless. So what is the principle of mind in action look like in practice? So this approach has had massive breakthroughs in prisons, for people who live on Gaza Strip, with gun crime, in Chicago, with you know, kids in schools, with, you know, people who are working probation, with marriage, marital problems, with drug drug addiction, just it's general human beings. So it's just it sounds really simple. But when you when you when you start to see it, when you really truly when you go away and reflect on that, when every time you feel you fall into a mood or a sort of a lone feeling, if you stop and actually become aware of what you're thinking at that moment and realize that it's coming from your thoughts, it's coming from you, inside of you, you can you catch yourself. So yeah, so I just got into this thought spiral that that dog was stressing. Now I wasn't good enough. Everybody hit you know, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and job of making me that that way. When I truly saw that it was just all sort created nonsense, it just it. It broak me free. Really. It made me realize that I'm never bound by my thinking. I think the more you the more you start to see that, the more you recognize that there's a constant stream of thoughts coming through you, you can't. You can't control them. You have no idea what sort of random stuff is going to come into your head. It's just is like a picker tape like on the telly. Is just this real of words are just constantly going through. But when you just start to see that for what it is and not grab onto it, grab ons where people that you see latch it, analyze it, if you just let them all flow, they don't have a hold on you. You know they don't have to have a hold on you. But I used to think the more negative of the thought, the more dart my mood, the more serious it was and the more I need analyze it, whereas all you really need to be in tune with this as soon as you're sort of thoughts hit, hit a low, hit south, I guess, as soon as you start to fall into those sorts of insecure, critical or self judging. died to him. When you start to feel yourself judging others, judging yourself, feeling secure, feeling paranoid, you know that your your mood is dropped, and that's always is. That's it's like a it's like a thermometer gage, you know. But yeah, depend upon the quality of your thinking. Is a real good guy to how how trustworthy those thoughts are. M I guess the trick is sort of recognizing when that's happening in and knowing how to sort of switch your brain off or switch those those negative thoughts off. It's just it's just a sort of a cinemometer. So you know when your thoughts go low, that's when you need to leave the sorts. You need to get out of your own way and leave from them. But I didn't what used to do when I get into that mood. I would analyze, I would I would go die strike straight in some because I felt that they were relevant and needed to be dealt with the sooner the better, and that was I needed to have it out with ran because I was feeling all these this anger and you know, as soon as we'd have a big route. I'd go into this do it. We weren't never compatible. This is just proof that we're not compatible. It would go again, raving the same argument. Therefore, it just it's proof that we're not compatible. And you know, I would literally go to bed thinking, right, okay, how can I? How can we? Maybe we're not meant to be together. where I'll go to bed in that horrendous mood. You know which we really are. She didn't analyze it like I did. Only since I've come across this, I've been open with her and said, you know, I'd really make something, I'd really interpret something from those arguments, and she like I didn't, and I'm like I did. I really did feel that they were evidence that we weren't suited. But there's a reason why people say sleep on it. Often, where you falls asleep... that mood, you wake up in the morning like yeah, I kind of remember what we're arguing about, trying hard to remember because you want to pick it back up again, and like actually can't remember. So it just goes to show, doesn't it, what a load of nonsense. But but yeah, so that that just that was that was a massive breakthrough. For me. You know, if I come home from work and the kids are just dumped all their shoes in a massive trail and I go into my oh my God, the kit. You know, I'd come on work and I'd be like other many kids, and then I start to catch myself and I go on that it's not shoes on the floor. Cannot put this mood into my head. HMM. When the next day I came in and I'd see the shoes and I'd be like it's a home. And then the next day, but I'd recognize that it's really my mood of my thinking. It's not shoes. Yes, it's in my brain, but it's so easy to leave that. HMM. So, yeah, so that's that's that's the principle of thought, I guess. I mean, how would you advise someone to tap into that or took to access it? What you know that that's already there and sustain in that kind of state of being? If someone is very excit in their ways and has a habit of, you know, as you say, coming in seeing the shoes, feeling wound up, you know how to access what works for you or what do you think might work for others? I guess the first thing is just to go and test it out for yourself. Really, you know, there's not to believe it, but just to go and see whether that that is true. So when you when you catch yourself in that mood, to stop and just observe where it's coming from. You know it's very hard not to find an occasion where you can't see the truth in it. Once you see it, you see it. But also to give yourself. You know it's impossible to not be stuck down the rabbit hole. I would can't you know, our moods will see great enough thoughts will pe control. You know it's impossible to control your thoughts. The only the only thing you really need to realize is their transients and and that's that. Unless you then less you pay attend. You know you can. So psychiatrist called Doctor Bill Petter, and he'll say I think my thoughts of their contribution and then I try and move on. But you know you will be sucked in and they'll be times where I've been really tired and rather a really busy day and I'll be be with the kids and it'll Li'll I you know, I'll be fools and I and I will be again and again, because we're human and it's impossible to never, never do that, never slip into a blind spot. But the more you see it, the quicker you come out with it. So ill and then I'll leave the room and I'll it'll you know it, rather than to take me a day or two days to figure out really who probably in the wrong way, even though of course I've go to blame the kids. It's I guess now it's more like minutes. You know, you can be old. Sometimes seconds or sometimes five, ten minutes, but it doesn't take me as long now to go to one pick it. So okay, you know it's tired. I'm tired. Not really anybody's fault, is it? And I'm sure that I didn't approach that in the about. You know, it's just you start to see, you start to see where it comes from, and I guess the main thing is not too not to be too hard on yourself, and I think when I first came across that I was about slipped into this oh my gosh, what have I done? You know, because I've been such I've been quite anxious and I projected so much of that. One's my kids I'd been like said, wasn't it said? It was quite an anxious kid, and still is really, you know, it goes it up and down, but I was like hyper analyzing that. So he's kind of suffered with lots of ticks motor is life, which is actually settled down a lot since I've come across this understanding. You know, when pointy adds this ticks was so bad that I thought, you, I thought that it was going to be it was become interet syndrome. It was almost like, you know, outburst, almost like swear words. I deferred into cams. He was on the wait list for that. I take him to the GP and IMD, referring to the newer develop mental team, and I had all these diagnosis going on and and that was rubbing off on set, you know. So when I came across this and realize how much, you know, my sort of my mood was protected onto Sam. You know, initially I was just really hard on myself. I was I was, you know, I felt like I was responsible. But yeah, I guess what it's learning to be kind yourself as well, because we're all we're all human and we're all living the human experience. You know. Yeah, so it's just to be it's not be self critical. And I genuinely I never thought I'd say it, but I really don't whole guilt, hardly at all anymore. HMM, and never thought I'd say that.

I just I let things go. I just even when I really cock things up, I'll have a little laugh in a cringe, but I don't judge myself like I used to. But I guess it's not. It's not just about thought, I think what really helps. So that's three principles. I mean the other massive one that about so consciousness is just your ability to be aware. So principle when his thought to consciousness, so the ability to be aware of your thinking. So this is something sid banks to described as that which gives us the ability to realize the existence of life, which sounds pretty deep. You know. How does someone make sense of this or just use it on a practical level to try and make sense of their own lives? Then got like a special effects in system. So I was thinking we don't realize we're thinking because it feels really physical. So you know, we'll see something, our heart will start raisingle smell something and we don't we don't realize that the smell and the sensations of trigger the thought in our mind that, you know what, sort of unconscious thought. So we think it sexternal, but it's a stored condition somewhere in our mind that we've sort of we've grown, you know, since our childhood or just since o the way our parents generally do things. And but yes, that's that. But the biggest one, and I think what's really helped me with the kids, is mine. So the principle of minds is is. I mean it's not just as in your tiny little human mind that it's the principle of universal mind. So whatever whatever that is, whether that's the universe, whether that's God, whatever people want to call it, I guess I never have you known me carry I've never ever been into a religion at all. It's never made any sense to me. Not that I don't I don't know. I wouldn't say I didn't feel, you'll, spiritual, I guess, but I I was just dad against it because anybody tried to explain anything like that to me it became religious and none of that sense because there was always a lab an element of sexism in that. It was always a big element of homophobia in that there was always a big element of judgment. And by sense me, how can any sort of your good thing judge others and make judge others to be better another? So I always just by his religion because it just felt like a man made nonsense to me. But that's what the three piece really did for me. It's it's before that, it's before all of that. So it's, you know, every sort of religion is pointing to the same thing. It's just but it's one man story, isn't it? It's lost in the translation, it's lost in the words and it's lost in the interpretation. As soon as it's put into words, it's it's it's stepped into the form, hasn't it? You know, it's gone from the form of character world into the form. So I guess what Sydney banks pointed to was universal mind. I suppose I've always felt the same really, you know, I considered myself spiritual but not religious at all. My Dad was always an atheist, yet I guess his faith was more placed in science and he did believe there was something out there, but again not something would name God. And you know, when you lose a loved one. You've recently lost your mum and I lost my dad within the last year, and you do sort of question the nature of faith and that sort of thing. And for me it is about sort of a transference of energy. You know, we were all made from star dust billions of years ago when we came into being and when we die, whether we cremated or whether we're buried, we go back into the earth, we go back into the elements and you know we will become stars used again at some point in that cycle will continue and continue. And you know, I don't believe that when when someone dies, the lights go out. I think that energy, you know, energy can't be destroyed or created. So that energy was always there in some form. It was that energy that caused the big bang and that caused life, and that just continues in one wonderful cycle. So yeah, I this kind of philosophy, if you want to call it philosophy or just a belief system, is something that resonates with me. Yes, it's that sense that we are all, we're all connected to that we're all we're all connected it to the same sort of universal energy, or whatever you want to call it, whatever was there before the Big Bang, and that's timeless and never ending. So, you know, you I...

...started to recognize that not only if I got that well being that's unbreakable, always accessible, that is within me, always whenever I need to access it, but my kids have too. So I realized that I don't need to teach them. I think I felt like, as a parent, as a heavy birden the responsibility, like I needed to help them become wise, I needed to help them fight, learn common sense, I needed to keep them safe in the world. They needed strategies to get through. And when I came across this, I realized that everyone's born with this. This isn't something that we need to learn. We've got it, you know. And if you think about before the age of three, before sort of the concoct you know, concepts are formed in children. They are constantly living in a sense of wellbeing. HMM, it's just there. They live in the moment, the fully present, you know. Emotions come and go. High's, extreme highs, extreme lows, fully present, everything's wow when amazing. That's cuts. That's what we are, that's that's how we're born, and the only thing that changes is when we start to form concepts and constructs and got to form this conditioned ideas. Really, but it does not to say that it's not all still there. M It's just covered up by our our thought, I was thinking O or our taking too much, taking our thoughts too seriously, I guess. HMM. So, yeah, so, seeing that my kids have that, you know now I hits atence. I work with then with my kids, with myself. No matter how wobbly I get, no matter how anxious I get, I know that I've always got that well being. Mental health is there. It's not breakable, apart from the layers and layers. Thinking sometimes clouds my vision of it. It's are how might thought in action manifest? Then way to access that is just to try and let the snow globe settle. Yeah, if you want to see Santor in this snow globe, you're not going to find him by shaking the snow globe, taking the he's never going to work as all, you just got to put it down. That's no devil and he'll appear. So as the same concept of when you feel yourself getting all worked up, the best thing you can possibly do is just right stop still. So, yeah, finding calm piece of mind. That's why people feel so great in nature, because you're when you're in nature, you you generally are more present. You have more because you've got all, you know, so many beautiful surroundings, beards and sky and trees. It's very easy to find presence in that environment and I think that's why covid's been so hard. A lot of people are being stuck on their own analyzing, you know, really caught in their own heads. M You know, less out, you know, sometimes less out in nature and less less present with other people. It's very easy to get lost in your own thoughts by rolls and yeah, so, yeah, so I think. Yeah, we're seeing mental health as a as an innate thing, and seeing that in my patients as well. So patient spends me with a million problems, but rather than jumping on that story and being sucked down that band wagon with them, I not that I don't respect what the problem have come with and not that I won't support them with that, but I also see the health in them. HMM. Means I have a very different approach, and the same with my kids when they having a big amount but they are really having a bit of a crisis or I don't think, Oh my God, Sabs, you know what's happened to seven, then my God, steps going to be broken in the level. You know. I know that they can't be scarred for life. HMM. That you know, and I try and connect with that and I think that helps to bring them back and settle them. I don't make a big deal of things, I guess. So, yeah, I think the way we approached, I think the way we approached mental health. You know, we very much talk about the mental health pandemic that we're in. And we are. and isn't that crazy, because we are, you know, the most advanced society. You know, we've got everything, we've got, we've got so much knowledge. But it's not it's not intellect that we it's not more in polite that we need. It's more getting back in touch with our own intuition, our own common sense. You know, there's a lot to be said about the way that people used to live to the way we live now. Techno led, information led, social media led, and it's, I'm disconnected with our own common sense, hmm, and it's just learning to be back in touch with that. Really not so with the kids when they are trying to make a big decision, used to be like, Oh, let me, let me problem solved with my...

...patients. Let me sort this out with your right. What's the problem? Let me help you fix it, because it's a problem that needs fixing. Now will be like, well, what do you think? What feels right? You know where? What what feels right for you? What have you've done so far? What feels good? Will you know? Just try and take a minute to think about what's feeling right for you. And Yeah, and that that's that's a really different so simple, but it's a really different way of approaching things and I just feel my kids are just, you know, they may have wobbles, but generally not, not so many as they used to. So we'll see. They're only twelve. We've still got more teeniqueys to go in have. Well, I've been reading up on this or the last couple of days been seeing this phrase thinking versus understanding and interest in they not really related to this chat, but I was just pondering thought the other day and you know, and at that awareness of it, that consciousness of thought, and that it comes from us, and I think I even put on facebook just just out of interest that. You know, how do people think? Because I've always assumed that everyone thinks like me. In the actual process is that I tend to think in sentences and monologs and that conversation's running through my head, running through my head, and there are times that it's more abstract and I will feel a feeling or I'll realize I'm thinking about something. I wasn't really thinking anything, it's just all of a sudden I'm thinking about my dad, you know, something like that, or I find myself in the Kitchen, oh I'm hungry, but generally I will tend to think in full, fullon sentences or words. And Yeah, I was shocked to sort of I'd seen an article on twitter in which someone had said, yeah, there are two types really, those little more visual and visual and conceptual and abstract, and then they they have this abstract notion, that is thought, which they then put into words consciously when they when they're communicating that thought. Or are the were the ones more like me that have this in a monologs, in a dialog, this in a question and answer, you know, almost interview style, go in all the time and I guess you're trying to replace something like the three P's. Some people are just not even self aware. You know, put that question to my mom and she she's I don't really know. I don't know how. I think it's hard to think about thinking. So I don't really know what I'm trying to ask. But what is, you know, the thinking versus understanding, and I guess how do we? How do we even become selfaware, like, as you said, that those thoughts originate in us and that it's not external things making us in that mood or make it us feel like that, but that these thoughts are sort of they're innated, they're in U S and and that's where it comes from. I how do you even become aware of that? It's quite it's a layered sort of concept to get your head around, isn't it not? So thing, I mean we're so like immersed in it we didn't even realize we're doing it, you know, and I think once I started to just recognize, I was thinking because yeah, you're so your mind is so busy all the time they even realize you doing it. But you know, the evidence is there. So I guess it's just asking to see the evidence of it. You know, I can think of times right, you know, used to leave my job in Nice, worked in Swansea and I can find a car. I could not find my car because I beat so already stressed out in my head, already like an in the day, I didn't even notice why Hark the car. I would be like. Sometimes I'd be almost in tears for forty minutes trying to leave work because I just haven't paid any tension to our partner. Could not buy my car. I assumed it was stolen and of course it wasn't. It I always found in the end. But it's just recognizing how often you know when you're when you've lost your keys and you're just trying to turn the house upside down and you're just going mad trying to find them, and then the moment you stop looking, yeah, is the moment you find them. And it's seeing those examples. You know, as soon as I stop looking for the car, eventually' You know, it just appears, doesn't it? So that the more you recognize that actually, the thinking is not you don't it's not required, HMM, to the outcome will happen on its own. Thinking is not necessary. You're girt your wisdom. Well, will so this sort of a deeper thought. It's not like we never really clear of thoughts, but there's a thought that comes from your like a deeper feeling, and there's a thought that spins around in the friends of your mind. That is you know. There's is a difference between that. Well, to see the difference and I think the main thing is just being in tune with your mood. HMM, you know,...

...if you it's just recognize and when you're in a low mood, your thoughts spiral and seeing that you know, and it's just being aware of it. And it's I think people think that they have to control their mind. They have, true, and it's absolutely impossible. But the it's just not possible. Thoughts just come and go. To see that that's from and there's always is always this human experience. Is always this. There is never a flat line. You know that. That's just nobody is that way and it's and just to see the humanness of the APPS and the down I used to do a teacher to Brownie groups and I would say, would you rather go to cinema and see a film that was nice and quite good and happy and you know, not much happen, but you know, but safe and you know it was, it was good. Or would you want to go and see a film where there's like drama and you know, there's the scary bits and there's exciting bits and there's, you know, you know, really a really emotional but and you cried and you laugh. What film would you want to go and see? You know what, some sounds better like all their second I'm like us. That's human emotion. You know, life is you don't nobody wants to be on a flat if you can. After the low follow is followed by the high. So, you know, whatever crisis happens, it's when we hit the unknown. I think we fear it. Don't worry. We fear the unknown. But actually I've learned to see that when you get to point where you don't know, that's the exciting bit because it means that something brand new is going to it's going to appear. So actually the unknown becomes much more exciting. Now I don't fear it. So we become aware that these unconscious thoughts can spill over into our conscious mind and sort of master that or kind of stop it in its tracks. What would you say is like the main benefit of that the more you learn to like just not let your thoughts, just let them come and go and not grab them, not grab and analyze them, the more space that's created in your mind, you know, because when I stopped looking, I gotta gonna go every everything, so much to do that the clock just it moves much more slowly, perhaps so many more hours in my baby because I'm not wasting them like going through all this por all the time. My mind is less busy, so I sleep better, I don't really struggle with sleeping and I just much more done without having to. I don't make so many lists, I don't prepare for speeches or presentations. I just like I trust, I gamble with I know. I know I'll need whatever I need to. Know is going to come. You know, I've been enough. I'm no enough. Trust my instinct and it's so much more sense it when you when you were, when you live life that way. So going back into the job and I as a manager rather than thinking my go. What's a manager need to what's the theory of a manager? One of the pillars of practice? Blah, blah, blah, blah, Blahlah, Blahlahlah. I just I just on into it being myself and I'll just, you know, present to everything. So like really truly truly listening to your staff and your patients. That's that's it, really, really really being open and trying to listen without judgment. That that's like. That's what. That's it really, you know, you can really be present with people generally, you hear so much more and you know the answers to you know, just the answers come. Yeah, so, yeah, it's hard to explain, but I think the main thing is just recognizing that you are you are think it. That's it. Just praying just slowly see the connection and not be hard on yourself much. Oh when I thinking that, I don't want to think that. You know, I need to think something else. Is like, okay, you're I go again. You know, probably need to slow down. Probably be a good idea to walk the dog right now. Probably be a good idea to just take a break. You know, whereas I used to think I just had to keep working harder, I need to do more hours on the PC, I needed to work, and the more stress I got, the more I felt they need to do. But, like to my partner, who's very prone to stress, I've been like ran, go and sit in the garden, just take five minutes. You'll be more productive if you take five minutes out than another four hours in that state of mind. HMM. Go and let your foot, just settle. It sat on your mind. And that's why I try and tell my kids, you know, like just, you know, going into and just try and just that you're you know, don't do too much cramming before and exam. Just, you know, just mean things, just trying to stay cool, you know, just don't, don't, don't, don't get worked out or don't get too lost in your head. Yeah, I think the possibles have tested day and then, like, you know, I didn't get to work up. No, I was okay, I didn't do it here. So I think it. Hate it if I call a three piece. I've absolutely hates it, but I kind of do it...

...overtly and help. Talking about these principles individually, it sounds like your state in the obvious, you know, because it just makes sense when you break it down, you know. But then when you combine the principle of mind, consciousness and thought, it's that very combination that makes a person's you know, creative powers and limited a problem is as soon as you give it a name, you know, the three principles of thought and innate health. When you give it that name, you instantly get the deniers, the conspiracy theorist, the people that call it new age Hippie Mumbo jumbo and say things like if you open your mind too much, the new brooms will fall out. Yeah, we've spoke about three piece quite a lot and I always think, you know, the sort of Pete. I mean, there're people in my life that I think would really benefit from it. We probably spoke, you know, privately, about the hats certain people that they would, you know, be really great if they sort of embraced it and just we're open to it. But I know least two or three people that would probably benefit the most would probably be the most resistant to it. What would you say to someone like that? I think. I think when I first came across that, I felt like an e got to teach it to everybody and ram it down everyone's throats, and then I think that's quite common and then I realize actually it's not necessary because we're all we're all living it all time. Both we're all in it. We're all exactly the same, but some of us are more caught up and our thinking another. So I think the more you come to people from that place yourself, the more sense of you are in it. You you become a tune infortd others. So I used to think I had to I had to give it to the kids, I had to teach it, I had had to get it. And it's not about that at all more I I fall into that space myself just sort of it's just a tune, infult effect and other people. So yeah, and that's it really just, you know, the more you slow down, the more you let your mind settle, it's sort of more rich. Other people sort of fall into that. If you're if you're that presence, that's what they fall into more so, you know, and if you recognize an out and about in a green space or whatever, helps your thoughts settle and you take that person along with you. You know, you don't have look about threeps. It's just yeah, you know, the more you can find operas let your mind settle, the more so as soon as your mind settles you're open to pure new thoughts rather than just your incessant learned condition thinking. As soon as your mind empty. So, you know, some people say when they're running, or some people say when they're in the shower. So people say when they're rock climbing or you know the think they are. There are certain times or activities or ways where your you feel your mind clear, as playing golf. I don't know this. It's ways. Sometimes our mind clears itself, doesn't it? Or when you were with your friends, when you just laughing your head off and you're in great company, when your mind clears, then run new stuff comes in with scan. I take it all. I just started embrace the felace holes from me peace here, scribble a little, I...

...use the time and ice. I take it all. I just love embrace the Lance. So yeah, it's it's a it's and that's where all the new ideas come from. And you know, I recognize that. You've always been amazing at that. You've always been so creative. You're always coming up with new stuff constantly. You find you're in tune with that. You know. So you you, you know. I just think you you're far. So it's not a case they need to know it because they bought it. You know, everyone's so it's yeah, it's just I think funny you said about whether it be playing golf, going for a walk, go for a run. I used to, as you know, I used to do long distance running and it might coincide with the time that I had a really big script to learn for, I don't know, Christmas play that was coming up. I think I'll go on along run and I'll practice my lines and I couldn't I be on that run on. My mind would just be blank and if I tried to do it, I couldn't do it because I was just in that mode of I'm just not thinking now, you know, which is yeah, it's nice to find those moments or whether it be like playing the guitar or or something creative. It doesn't have to be creative if someone's not that way inclined. Yeah, and you've mentioned your your kids a lot, and I think, I think this. Yeah, this is so beneficial to young people that can, you know, so get trapped in negative patterns of thought and whether it be just kind of what they see in their parents. Like you say, it sort of rubs off. I mean I'm sure that I come in very, very stressed and that you know it does affect the mood of the kids when said me and Mel maybe have had a bad day and there's at tension in the air and then the IT rubs off on the kids. And Yeah, do you think, and I know you've done work with young people and I like probably at the start of doing it, you add a group of seven willows friends, didn't you do in a almost a little course in it? But they've just said it almost doesn't need to be taught. It's kind of the approach. I'm thinking a classroom teacher. Would it be better to give them training in that so that their approaches in the classroom are just naturally doing it? Or do you think it would benefit young people like the Brownies Group to sort of learn about it? And Oh, yeah, I think. I mean it says there are loads of groups that do it. There's a there's an organization called Iheart and you just really just rolled out in loads of schools in London and had really amazing sort of they've done some research outcomes on it for IMPS and there's an American the one I trained with was the spark, Spark Association, the Spark Organization, Stark Initiative. That's it, I think, with them. And Yeah, they've done loads and loads of work in the state. So it's hut and there's Lotts of videos on. You can youtube bit two kids talking about how they how they see. I've got a video of willow actually I'll just shall send it to you later. I will owe sort of reflections on the changes in our house a few years ago when she was about eight. Yeah, yeah, so I definitely yeah, being it is really helpful just as a day to day thing, but it's a lovely thing to teaching schools. There seems to be an emphasis during the current climate on wellness and and good mental health, you know, and it's great to see organizations like the Royal College of Psychiatry taken on an artist in residence, poets and playwright Patrick Jones. And while there is a lot being done, you know, I do always think there could be more being done. Do you think there should be an emphasis within healthcare on but the sort of philosophies of the three principles? With all good intentions, we are trying to help, but what we're doing is having the opposite effects. We are, you know, we've just become so overdiagnostic over the years that, you know, the ICF ten or whatever that did. The list is just grown and grown and grown and grown and grown. And all the mental health diagnosis are just huge and I guess what the three piece points back to is that there's there's only one mental illness and that's that's believing you're thinking to be true and that that's doing extreme. It's a PRENIA.

Look like Bill Petty. It was a psychiatrist to say schizophrenia is just it's just, you know, thoughts for spective facts. HMM. No, and and and people can get from that when they people can come out of that when they see whether, you know, it's I think we just assume that with that diagnosis someone's broken account be fixed, but that's because that's because they've been told that all their lives. HMM. You know, when someone sees the health in them and actually points them back to that, it can be huge. And my mum always thought she'd seen those of psychiatrists over the years and she was led to believe she was broken and I think she believed it. Well, I believed it, but I'm pretty sure she did. Yeah, but I don't think my dad ever had that approach. I think even from a young age. You know, my dad always. I think if you think how that how like we deal with it now, childhood drama and have the approach that we take in scores and young mental health now would be the opposite of what my dad's so so when I was about, when Emma and I were very young, my members have that the depression and we the worst sort of most traumatic memory is coming home, running into my mum's room and she tried to kill herself. So she just had bloody wrists and raise the blades on the side table and she was sort of semi conscious and really scary. I think I was. I still have a been about six or something, bib or six and Emma was a few years older. Really really scary experience and you know, we'd run to get dad and keep being blue lighted to hospital and I just remember that evening my dad saying to M and I you know, you know mum's you know Mum's not not very happy at the moment, but you know she's going to be okay and you're okay. You know it's all right. Give me a cuddle. You know you you're okay and it sounds so simple, but how often now do we say oh childhood drama. For this is the good of this. You know, you could scar you for life what you've seen now you can never run see. You know, my maybe that you're going to any counseling for I'm not saying that's not coming from the cut. It's coming from a really kind place. It is coming from wanting to help kids, but by given the understanding that your experiences, it's an outside in experience and what happens to you will affect you for life, you know, will star you. Nothing on in the outside can can can really do that? Just you're thinking about it. You know, if someone tells me that, that's if, as a child, I'm told that my experience can can can store me, which my dad had never did. My Dad was very much you're okay, you know, you're okay. Mom's going to be okay. It's but he could have dealt with it very differently and then he could have been vigilantly watching me and Emma for the rest of childhood. You know, are they? I think? Okay. Has This effected you? Never even was very much. Yeah, just we're good. You know, it's this. This is all right. Very much played it down, but was very loving and very kind, you know, through very good intentions. We we've fallen into the opposite, you know, and kids are so you know, that's this concept of you have anxiety. So like an anxiety is not an object that we can carry in a bag. It's M it's anxiety. Isn't what we are, it's where we are, you know, it's where we are at this given moment. And we all both through those moments of anxiety. It's not just because we had we feel anxiety in this moment. It doesn't mean that we have anxiety and that's going to be something we always have. My kids kind of said, all right, no, right, I'll say so. It's so in school to say she's got anxiety. As I watched, she got anxiety. She was feeling anxious today. You know, she said she's got anxiety. I like, I know she does, but just because she felt anxious to day, it doesn't always kind of doing them and Said said to me, he said it's biggest con but is ever said he said on them. You're not a worry in them, are you? And I was a well, he said, Oh, I'm really glad that you're not one of the one of the worry and mum's I's so Gosh said that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me and said you don't really worry about stuff, he said, but I think I do. I think I'm going to grow up to be a worrier. I worry a lot. I worry a lot more when I was a kids. Don't use think, just because I don't worry now, that I did. Massively worried loads and I was a kid. But just because you worry now, it doesn't mean you're always going to be that way. You know, I've learned to worry lets and I'm sure you will too, you know. So I get he was already placed and diagnosis naxious person, you know, and I'm just tried to keep washing that. But I could and I probably would have three four years ago. But like the SAS an actials kid happy, it's going to be this, because I see this now and is always what you get. Definitely for me, when I'm being my...

...creative self, I feel that the three P's are all working together in absolute harmony. It usually manifests in musical creations. For me, writing a song, getting a spark and in put inspiration from somewhere, thinking of a lyric that just sums up what I'm feeling inside when I haven't really been able to put my finger on it, coming up with a melody from nowhere. You know, sometimes it it manifests itself just when I'm listening to music. I do find music very powerful and the therapeutic powers of music and deniable, particularly in my line of work. What specific songs have had, you know, a great impact on you and on your mental health and your wellbeing in a profound level? And why? It could be recent, it could be something you've written yourself, it could be a song that your parents to sing to you as a kid, but something that you think is really had a positive impact on your mental health and you know, you hear it now and it takes you to that place. You know. Oh, it never fails to bring on these emotion doesn't even necessarily have to be positive emotions, because sometimes crying is the emotion that we need to feel and sometimes grief is the emotion we need to feel, and that isn't necessarily a negative is it? So it isn't necessarily will be a happy song. That suppose I'm saying, just something that is impacted you. Wow, three songs. Well, oh, or one, if you can only think of one, it's fine. Oh my, guess it's different songs impact for different reasons, don't they? I mean, I thought you were going to ask me for a cut song. Thence my mind went straight to a Clarry Sally Song. There was song that really I just absolute went song that I love, that takes me back to a really happy time in our lives and we traveled together. Was Full Moon. I send a guess which one thing to say. Then I'm trying to think of the boss. Now. Yeah, you're on my shade. Yes, yeah, I cannot wait before and I should be this. My s touch back as long as they I can't feel, I can hate, I can't stay. Don't look to close into my eyes. I can see something that I despise you when, when you lightly so, I know that when fry blank, I get you. When I don't feel, that song takes... to a really happy place. Yeah, it's just a song of our friendship. And you know, that was a time in our lives where we just were very much living in the present moment and I think that is that is contentment, isn't it? And it's not. It's not about that place. It's about really not having a care in the world, you know, just being totally spontaneous and just responding to every experience and grasping everything that came up came my way. So yeah, I really connect that at the time in our lives with that feeling of just yeah, just really fully immersed in the moment and that's just such a lovely way to live life, you know. So yeah, so that song. You want to leave that one in and that's a really gooddy and I guess to childhood sort of feeling of security as my dad and I was one of our hot if dad, dad ever did stop still and gave me a little bit of this times, it was a very hard worker. Our Hobby would be to sit together and work at the lyrics of a song. So we let me see, and there isn't a pencil and get the CASSETT player. Pause, rewind, pause, rewind, pause, run until we've written all the lyrics of a song down. So that's a really happy memory. So I guess just thinking of the sort of album we would have done that with some and they those days it would be sort of Neil Young, Steve Miller band or the kinks or OB Dylan? Yeah, yess, when I felt all my memos, used to put Steve Miller band album on. So it just used to play out until I fell asleep. So my favorite album, but it was the song that sentence, a security album, I guess. Oh, albercas Abra. And Yeah, he again down, spinning round and round, running round round where nobody knows. Yeah, you got my name. I heat up like a burning place, burning flame, full of desire, because the baby let the barge reach out and grabs just a feeling that connect you with as. Yeah, and what about now? What about current artist? Is they're an artist that just kind of does it feel lucky place. Yeah, I guess about want to just sing at the top of my voice. It would probably I know I'm not so good at keeping up at the moment, but I do quite like listening to the Annella habits. Yeah, just lovely, sort of happy, uplifting belters. I guess that's sort of stuff, soulful stuff. Yeah, I'm getting stronger. It's taking the time, doing willfully stoppable. Don't know what I did it for. Needed to know that it was always when we walk down the line on the clear nights, Guy Fly and it's scary. Man Take side, almost through the dark streatures of space to another shot around. There's nothing else. They're holding and stuff. It's just pratation.

We are start very much what we've been chapping over an hour now. That's flown by. Thank you for that. I show edit in a little bit sad it in some songs and I'll let you know when it's ready. Let me watch it. Thanks for Welcoln okay, take care. Bye. Join US next time when I interview Makayla Cocks, blind author, blogger and disability rights active. It.

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