Episode · 3 weeks ago

Mouth-Off Episode 19: The Three Principles of Innate Health, Mind, Thought & Consciousness with Sali Curtis


On today’s episode of Mouth-Off I will be chatting to my good friend SALI CURTIS. Sali wears many hats - Mum, lesbian, wife, Speech and Language therapist, singer/songwriter, and a practitioner of the Three Principles of Innate Health, Mind, Thought & Consciousness

We had a great time deconstructing the THREE PRINCIPLES – with Sali giving us insight into her own personal journey with innate health and wholeness. We also discuss a range of other interlinking topics from parenting, sexuality, religion, musical inspiration, and mental health.

NB - the music tracks included in this podcast are used for the purpose of critque and analysis.


Intro Music - music by Clary Saddler 

Too Deep – written by Saddler, performed by Cwtch 

Three Principles Animation – by Banks, edited by Coach Café [taken from YouTube]

Do our THOUGHTS Shape our REALITY – by Mara Gleason

Stop – written by Curtis, performed by Cwtch

Full Moon - written by Saddler, performed by Cwtch

ABRACADABRA – written by Miller, performed by Steve Miller Band 

Unstoppable – written by La Havis, performed by Lianne La Havis

Outro Music - music by Clary Saddler 

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Welcome to mouth of a podcast for andabout marginalized groups, I'm clary Sadler and so far in the series, I'veinterviewed a range of people from all walks of life, whom I consider in somecapacity to represent marginalized groups on today's episode I'll be interviewing.My very good friend, Sally Curtis Sali is a professional manager foradult acute speech and language therapy services at COMTE, Morgan UniversityHealth Board Sali and I have been playing music and writing songstogether. Since about two thousand and three, we actually formed a band calledCutch, which we are still in on an overseas trip around the world. I know me, I'm thinking was sin and hadshe fall in life, winging belating game gets of e before every time, something but the oistins. Well as being amusician and speech. Terrific Sally Practices. The three principals she'sgoing to be talking about that today. The three principles were firstdescribed by Scottish Welder Sidney banks in one sand, nine hundred andseventy three, and they were described as three keyfactis, which interact perform people's psychological experience. The three principles or three pass. Theare often called are the universal mind, thought and consciousness. What is mine conscious of thought mind the intelligence of all thingsconsciousness, Niculai and thought is like the runner of a ship, it gaugesthrough life, and if you can learn to use that ratherproperly, you can gain your way through life way. We better than you ever emagine. You can go from one reality to another. You can find your happiness. Okay, Sally Curtis, welcome to Mathothanks for coming on. So would you mind that, starting by introducing yourselfin a net, shall I guess what do you think? How would you first describeyourself? What is your identity for the first and foremost, I am a fort two year old female. I was forgetting MMoser out here or there what's more female lesbian mem of two married to a lovelywoman, and I am an NHS professional. I guess I'm generally a pretty go with the flow spontaneous person, although I go withthe fly with it: Sam Flat, Horizontal I'm, pretty ass, mover and one of these people that my work.Colleagues always tell me, I like the things then. Oh, yes, patience hasnever been my strong point. If I want to do something, I do it and I get itdone and I don't look back. I just noticed, though, and when youdid that you started with your age and your gender was that just by fluke or is thatsomething that you know being female being a lesbian? I mean I know you aregood friends. I've known you a long long time you not someone hung up onage, I'm guessing. That was just the first thing that came to our your mind,but a you sort of like female lesbian. Is that a badge of honor you wear firstand foremost, or you know mum or work or I is it all of the above fear. But Iguess me is a big part of my life, but I don't like to Mamsie is not something that I relateto or aspire to. I guess, and obviously...

...the lesbian came along a lot before thekids did Maya. I am proud to be gay and I don't really hide it to anyone andit's been a long time since I did work. Colleagues, junior colleague, Ithink it's good to be a role model and to be confident and and let other people feel comfort belowtheir own skin. I think, especially with young people, so I pushed my kids friends out there comforon quite a lot of my kids. Obviously do they don't try to, but they fockeparents, so it's something that their friends have to get used to, but I know it was think this probablyone of their friends might be in the closet themselves and hasn'tquite figure themselves out. So that's not to be ashamed of these things. IO't not sure I ever have been really yeah. So I mentioned in theintroduction that O of as well as all of the above you are a musician.Interestingly didn't mention that we've been singing and play music writing since to about twothousand and three are well really on our years to travel,a broader, Thailand, Australia, barley, do you still have a musical identity?Do you think, or as it taken more of a form of music, you listen to an otherother music that inspires you. I always consider you the musician.Carry you carry me along with you. You I've,never really called my Sapa musician, because I feel a bit of a fraud to call myselfwhele. I do love music and I do love to sing. At the same time, I wouldn'tconsider myself a a singer, but I like being part of uchas one of your band members illfeeling he I can take the bag of that nofounding member. I think you came up with a name and then wanted to change it about fiveyears later say, and it's actually a bit childish or is that good in or everyone is equally thrilled and intrigued and curiousabout the possibility to have more mental freedom than they do in themoment people are experiencing a version ofreality according to what's running through their own mind, like the mind,is a projector, so we have thoughts and we project an experience of reality andwe feel the real, the cinematic realness of that movie by the power ofour minds. You know where the director of these incredible films that we livein, so I really wanted to get you on totalk about the three principles. So this is something that you havementioned. I know it's something you came upon a few years ago that has sortof helped you, I guess, reframe your thinking, patents and I guess how youdeal maybe deal with stress or just recognize that it's there and then letit go. I mean I will probably won't do it justice. If I try and try andexplain so I guess to our listeners that don't know what it is or I haven'theard of it. You know, can you tell us a little bitabout it and how you first found the three peas through principles? Okay, S, I really seperated or mental healthover the years, particularly I'm generally quite not person to dwell on thingsnecessarily, but I've always been an over thinker, sure always been quite aworrier and get overwhelmed quite easily. I guess and get irritated,create and impatient and short tempered, I guess but and Guilt Gil to something that I justfelt. That was just something that you just do,thickly, as as an adult, and even more so when you become guilt, is justsomething that you are. You know comes with roll. I wasn't wasn't brought up in aCatholic family as such, but my family were very much. At least I lay theguilt on. We were all raised with that element of guilt. If e didn't put youaway or whatever so yeah, I just constantly carried thegun. Also when I became a mum, so I still wanted to keep my job. My wife is a speech carapes I manageall one of the health boards in was aspeech every team and manager all or in patient services. I've got quite a busyjob and been quite creve and really since he not. I was part time when thekids are born, but it didn't gradually work my way back up to full time hoursbut try. I was always carry the guilt, so I've not doing good enough in workor I'm doing. I was doing s not not...

...quite doing good. You know good enoughjobs in them and then my work, I being elected or not don, is ev as a friendor obvious, then like I was, I was lacking or not really fulfilling myrole, and there was too much going on in my life.I would just totally get really overwhelmed with Oh, my gosh.You know there's so much to do today along I just I myself round in in circles really, and then I did I changed to. I think I had gone from afew really really busy busy jobs and then into a promotion. I don'tparticular what I sickly looking for, but I took it because I needed a joband yeah. It was a stepper. My first sortof management done and a lovely team is a very busy dog, but Ijust really slipped the worst. I don't know it's the first time, but the worsttime I slipped into a really really bad case of imposter syndrome. So I canrelate to that when I sort of made the transition from act, the musician to get in my degree and then getting a jobas a secondary school drama teacher I was constantly sort of feeling,inadequate and and that I was just sort of playing the role of a grown up andplaying the role of a responsible adult, and you know expect to teach these teenagers when they really felt likeyou know they were just thinking. What on earth? Is She doing here that actor?Why she she's acting the role? What is she going to teach us you know, so Ican totally relate to that. We've all felt it, but I just really felt like Ijust I wasn't ready for the job, but I just bent taking it. I wasn't goodenough and I beauly Pareni that everybody could tell everybody was like.Oh my God. What's she doing here, I was utterly convinced that I was doing aterrible job and I just obsessed over it and because I was thinking it, Iassumed that was true and the more I thought it. The more I felt I had toanalyze it, and I would I just got to the point where I was to be driving towork and I would literally be honest in a panic attack. I would be so stressedout, reading going into work, I drink my dad, I could barely speak. I wastearful and anxious and my dad would be like you've got to you know. You've gotto go, you've got to tell someone you got to Tak it through, but I've managed to pull that drive towork, pull myselves together and get through the day, just fine and then gethome, and then I'd be absolutely. You know alted and anxious, and I wouldbend my partner's hear about it and again, I'd be utterly convinced all thethings I done badly that day and how everybody everybody could see it. Youknow- and there was all this evidence on my sister- would say it's just inyour head sale. I'm sure people don't see the way you see you yourself waslike no, no, they do because someone so said this so and so said, BahbahbahBlah. This is the evidence that is, you know, makes everything true that I'mjust not good enough. This job yeah, I just got- I was really notpresent with the kids. I was an episode as I could get into work for seven, so I could geta couple more hours in before the everybody else came in and I get home.I rush the kids to bed, I'd be really irritable and stress, because I felt I had to domore work to prove myself and then I would I'd hardly see the kids and whenI did see them I was really snappy and visible a yeah. So I just got myselfinto a bit of a Tis really and I've never really felt that anxious before so yeah. I guess that's the close asI've got to sort of panic, attacks and anxiety and depression. I was reallylaid by and yeah, and you know I pat it was such toPat. My skin was coming out in sort of rashes and I was just feeling it in mybody and I really starting to have physical side effect. So did you seek out the three ps youknow as a way of of dealing, or were you just looking for some? You knowsome mindfulness of some approaches or meditation, or that kind of I thought that what I needed to do, Ithink what we all tend to think we need to do is to feel better. We need tochange our circumstances, so it just made sense to me at the time to make alist of all the things in my outside will that I needed to change in orderto make myself feel better. So the first thing I felt I had tochange as it was all just do with the job, even though I'd been really trusted.You know the last couple of jobs previously and I've been reallyoverdoing it and working far too hard. It was. It was certainly, I wasbuilding myself up to it, but I didn't see that at the time, so I decided tofind another job was my first plan and I sought a demotion, so I had been inthat job for about a year and a half, and I decided to step back down. Ididn't think I was good enough. I couldn't hack it. I moved to adifferent hospital that I worked in...

...before that I was familiar with. Itfelt good and then the second thing I felt Ineeded to do was to learn to be a better parents, because Ireally felt that I was not a good one. So I went lookingfor sort of parenting programs because I felt quite ashamed that Ijust really disconnected from the kids and needed to do into a better job. Ifelt like someone had to teach me so yeah, so I stumbled across a programon facebook. I don't think it's actually packaged the same way now, butit was caused like hearted parenting, and it was by a psychologist onfacebook called Nikola Bird and, if you just had this to just there was thesevideos of testimonials, and I watched these testimonials of hersort of zoom, callings and parents in their kids, and I was just like what isgoing on here. It was just wow that the parents were just like it.Just the feeling was amazing and they just they were talking about completetransformation in the feeling of their household and their relationship withtheir kids, and I thought what on Earth is going on in this. It sounds amazing,I'd love to know what this is all on. So I showed round and ran also wascurious and we signed up for. I think it wasn't loaden as Handad quid we bothsigned up right, so it was essentially taking the philosophies of the threeprinciples and turning it into a sort of package or for parents to help helpwith parenting or was it like for the whole family and the wet it came somefit for the kids to watch so so yeah. We work through that as a family. Iguess an wore me for me, but we all work through it yeah. So I thought itwas going to be sort of strategies. That's what we all think in we need. Weneed to list of things to do to do one to ourselves and behaviors. We need tochange to I'm a better person. We all go throughour lives. Reading million and one self help books or, as I like, to call themself, helpless, books and yeah, and it wasn't what expected at all it wasreally on. It was the whole ethos of it was three principles or an et tail orwhatever it's got different refer to in different ways and yeah. It was reallymuch more spiritual and sort of Sol affirmingthat I expected it. It was. It was what I was expecting to to. How was itdifferent to what you expected in what way, but basically it very much intoinward. It pointed up stream not down stream into yourself yeah in a really really accessible andtangible way. So yeah, I had a huge impact on me and just really flippedaround my relationship with the kids and ran particularly round. Actually, Ididn't even think of the time that was necessarily one of the problems, but Irealize it. There was a lot that wasn't right there and what about work did it? Did it helpwith that stress at all and yeah work? Might you know now I've since I've kindof discovered this a few years ago? I have gone back to a manage real jobagain, and I did it this feel so different. It's not been easy of kindof change jobs in the middle of the coved Pan ter make managing all ourhospital service here. So it's not easy to a stake on the roll, just felt so much more comfortable inmy own skin, though you know outside of the initial. I don't know, if you'd call it a course,but the initial sort of sessions and work that you've did within the familyand and those sort of problems that you want to do overcome early on. Obviously,then you realizing they're, not problems, you know, and it's aboutchanging. You know negative patterns of thought on that sort of thing. So Iguess how have you implemented them in daily life? Like you know, some peoplehave mantras that they say every day. Some people meditate first thing in themorning or last thing at night, or both I mean, is there a sort of a mindsetthat you that you say when you get out of bed? Is there a voice that you yousort of switch on when you feel yourself going into that negative place?Or is it just an organic thing that you? You know that you've now taken on? Soit's it's. Definitely none of that because, again that strategies so yeah. So I guess to explain whatwhat it's all about, as as simply as I can it's, it was just. It was a understanding of the human mind that aScottish well, there had a bit of an epiphany in the sevens.It's really not that long as to- and I he had his name was Sydney banks...

...and he'd spent his life. Bein he'slived in the northern Canada and he's he was a scotsman sort of a supervisorin the welding, and he just spent most of his life Bendepressed and having marital problems and self analysis and criticism andinsecurities, and that was just as pretty much normal. Isn't it sad yeah and he it was that in the s there were lotsand lots of different psychological and approaches. You know cominitteemen allthe different theories. You know all the guess out theories and youngCarlyon and all that sort of stuff, or there was loads going on and he didn'tnone of it really watched sat with him. I think he was lookingfor something, but he just didn't rate all the psychological approaches, but all his friends would go in to allthese conventions and they were all trying to drag him along, and you knowfelt there was lots of relationship and worked, but to going on so that itsfriends are tried to encourage him to go to this one work shot by the latestsort of Cancello, Goolo and yeah. His story goes that he bookedhimself on for his white him and his wife and then had second thoughts and pones andcanceled and booked himself on again rang through her second thoughts.Canceled the court third time had second thoughts run through, and theysaid, is this. Mr Banks up went along and chop was everythinghe it was in his eyes awful. It was one of those sorts of approaches where youjust lay all your cards on the table. You have a massive argument: Arole ances and cry hit each other, and you know that'sgoing to result things he in the watching. All these partners put eachother's hair out almost literally and just thought. This is ridiculous. Isupposed to be a way to resolve a marriage and he left and he sort of checked, was chat in toa friend in the in the for year. I think and the friends, and he said whatyou know, what I'm going to do my life, I'm so insecure. I'm never going tosort myself out, and this friend just said so you know insecure. You justthink you are HM. That was that and for about three days he just wentinto this epiphany sort of bubble. Just like. Ohmy Gosh, you just pondered on this. This aboutthree days didn't eat, didn't sleep and just reflected on it and sort of cameinto an understanding about human existence. So and then he tried to tookhim quite a while to articulate it, but what he or that was the three principalit is really fascinating, isn't it? I was doing research for this interviewand I was reading an article by Michael Neil on this very topic and his sort offeeling is that the problem with the question? What is what is the sort ofessence of the three principles of mind consciousness and thought is thatpeople are too tempted to answer with words and he feels words are woefullyinadequate for the job. You know it's beyond words to sort of describe theessence and philosophies behind it, and I know words may be inadequate, but you know, could you try and articulatewhat it's all about in a nut? Shell? You know when you've read said banksdescriptions when you've heard these stories when you've when you've lookedinto it yourself. What is it an essence? So it's just areally really. I I think so many people have tried it's just same. He so manydifferent spiritual approaches, but I guess it's just cling to practically very easy to grasp, rather thansounding like some sort of very fairy thing that you just can't quite getyour head around I mean the crux of it is that human beings tend to suffer because ofan understanding of where their experience is comingfrom. So we're all cultured to believe that ourcircumstances create our feelings and that's just what we do. So we justassume wi it the weather's bad. We on, I feel miserable or if work isstressful, we're going to feel up tight or if someone says something rue toWest we're going to be upset. We just assume we've just that's just the way.We've always been, we've interpreted things and that's where humans justtend to see the way things work. So it's an outside in world and he realized it was the opposite. Herealized that it's whatever we think is.

I always what we see. So our experience directly correlatesis always crazy throat, thinking which it that sounds like Oh yeah. Iknow that when you really truly see that everything every experience is thoughtcreated without exception, you realize there's so much helpbecause you're not bound by your experience going back to sid banks, so hedescribed the principle of mind as the energy of all things, whether in formor formless. So what is the principle of mind inaction? Look like in practice, so thisapproaches had massive breaks through in prisons with people who live on GazaStrip with with gun crime in Chicago with. You know kids in schools with you know, peoplewho are working for bation with marriage, marital problems with drugOaiti just is general human beings. So it's just. It sounds really simple,but when you, when you, when you start to see it, when you really truly, whenyou go away and reflect on that, when every time you feel you fall intoa mood or a sort of a alone feeling, if you stop and actually become aware of what you're thinking atthat moment and realize that it's coming from your thoughts, it's comingfrom you, I pit of you, you can catch yourself. So yes, so I just got into this thoughtspiral that at Bob was dressing. Now I wasn't bid enough everybody. You knowBahbahbah Bah, Bah job me me that that way and when I truly saw that it was justall so created nonsense it just it broke me free really. Itmade me realize that I'm never bound by my thinking. I think the more you, themore you start to see that the more you recognize that that there's a constantstream of thoughts coming through you, you can't you can't control them. Youhave no idea what sort of random stuff it's going to come into your head. It'sjust it's like a ticker tape, like all the tally is just this real of wordsare just constantly going through, but when you just start to see that for what it is and not grab onto it grab ones wherever you thought that you see nat shit analyze it. Ifyou just let them all flow, they don't have a hold on you. You knowthey don't have to have a hold on you, but I used to think the more negativeof the thought. The more that my move, the more serious it was and the more Ineed to catalyze it, whereas all you really need to be in tune with his assoon as your sort of thoughts hit hit hit Elo hit south, I guess as soonas you start to fall into those sorts of insecure, critical self. Judging I don't know when you start to feelyourself, judging others, judging yourself feeling your feeling paranoid,you know that your your mood is dropped and that's always is that's. It's likeit's like a thermometer gauge. You know, but yedepend on the quality of you're. Thinking is a real good guide. How Have Trust Wady? Those thoughts are M. I guess the trick is sort of recognizing when that'shappening and and knowing how to sort of switch yourbrain off or switch those those negative thoughts off it's just it'sjust a sort of a tenemos. So you know when your thoughts go low. That's whenyou need to leave the sorts you need to get out of your onaway and leave themto, but I didn't what I used to do when I get into that mood I would analyze. Iwould. I would go die and strike straight in one, because I felt thatthey were reelevation and needed to be dealt with the sooner the better, andthat was I needed to cover out with round, because I was feeling all these.This anger- and you know soon as we'd, have a big row I go into this. I can doit, we burn we never compatible. This is just proof that we're not compatiblewon rubbing the same argument. Therefore it just it's proof that we'renot compatible and on. I would like cigole thinking right. Okay, how can I?How can we maybe we're not meant to be together? I would go to bed in thatAranda smooth. You know which we would we really are she didn't analize itlike. I did only since I've come across this I've been open with her and saidyou know, I'd really make something. I'd really interpret something fromthose arguments and she, like I didn't, and I like I did. I really did feelthat there were evidence that we were ben suited, but there's a reason whypeople say sleep on Itto. We, you falls asleep inthat mood. You wake up in the morning,... a Yein. Remember we're aking aboutA to remember us. You want to pick it back again and you like actually can'tremember that so just go to show. Doesn't it what low nonsense but butyeah so that that just that was that was a massive break through for me, youknow if I come home from work and the kids are just dumped all their shoes ina massive trail, and I go into my oh, my God, the kid you know I come up workand I be like other. My kids and I staat myself and I go no. It was notshoes on the floor cannot put this mood into my head and the next day I come in, and I seethe shoes and I'd be like it's a home and then the next day. But I recognizethat it's really in my mood and I thinking it's not choose yes, also, my brain, but it's so easy toleave that M so yeah. So that's that it that's the principle of thought. Iguess I mean how would you advise someone totap into that or to access it? What you know that that's already there andsustain that kind of state of being? If someone is very exciting in ways andhas a habit of you know, as you say, coming in seeing the shoes being andwound up, you know how to access what works foryou or what do you think might work for others. I guess the first thing is just to goand test out for yourself really, you know is not to believe it, but thiswe goin and see whether that that is true. So when you, when youcatch yourself in that mood, to stop and just observe where it's coming from, you know it's very hard not to find anoccasion where you can't see the truth of it. Once you see it, you see it, butalso to give yourself. You know it's impossible to not be stuck down the rabbit hole. We can'tyou know our moods will trait and our thoughts will be and Tros. You knowit's impossible to control your thoughts. The only the only thing youreally need to realize is they're transient, and, and that's that less you he let you pay attentat. Youcan think so. A psychic, as is called Dr Bill, petter and he'll, say I foundmy thoughts to the contribution and I I try and move on, but you know you willbe Sekani be times where I be ee, tired and I had a really busy day and I'll bereally stacking with the kids and it'll it'll Lou know I'll be fools and I andI will be again and again because we're human and it's impossible to never never do that, never slip into a blindspot, but the more you see it, the quicker you come out with it so andthen I'll leave the room and it'll. You know it other than it takes me a day ortwo days to figure out really who is probably in the wrong, even though, ofcourse, I've a been the kids, it's. I guess now it's more like minutes. YouKnow Abel, sometimes seconds or sometimes five, ten minutes, but itdoesn't take me as long now to go to one picking. Okay, you know it tired,I'm tired, not really anybody's fault. Is it andI'm sure that I didn't approach that about you? It's just. You started tosee you start to see where it comes from,and I guess the main thing is not to not to be too hard on yourself. I thinkwhen I first came across a I e e slipped into this. Oh my God. What haveI done? You know because I've been such I've been quite anxious, and Iprojected so much of that on my kids, I bein, like said wasn't, it said, isquite an anxious kid and still is really. You know he goes sit up anddown, but I was like hyperanthes so he's kindof suffered with lots of ticks most of his life, which has actually settleddown a lot since I'd come across this understanding. You know one point he had this stickwas so bad that I thought he I thought that it was going to be. It was becomeinterest syndrome. It was almost like. You know, outburst almost like swearwords. I referred into cans, it was on the waites for that I take him to the GP and I mad referrin to the newer developmental team and I had all theseagnosis going on and and that was rubbing off one set inthis. When I came across this and realized how much you know my sort of my mood was projected on to Sab. You know. Initially, I was just reallyhard on myself. I was I was you know I felt like I was responsiblebut yeah. I guess what it's learning to be kind to yourself aswell, because we're all we're all human and we're all living the humanexperience you know yeah. So it's just to be it's just tonot be self critical, and I genuinely I never thought I'd say it, but Ireally don't hold guilt. Hardly at all any moreand, never thought I'd say thatI just I'd. Let things go I'd just even...

...when I really cock things up. I have alittle laugh in a Quin, but I don't judge myself like I used to, but I guess it's not it's not justabout the thought. I think what really helps so that's three principles. Imean the other massive one that apart so consciousness is just your abilityto be aware so principal where is taught to consciousness, so the abilityto be aware of your thinking. So this is something said banks described asthat which gives us the ability to realize the existence of life, which sounds pretty deep. You know how does someone make sense to this? I just use it on apractical level to try and make sense of their own lives then got like aspecial effects in system. So I was thinking we don't realize we'rethinking, because it feels really physical, so you know we'll seesomething or how was a really single smell something, and we don't. We don'trealize that the smell and the sensations of trigger the thoughts inour mind, t you know it sort of unconscious thought, so we think it sexdeal, but it's a stored condition somewhere in our mind that we've sortof we've grown. You know, since our tild Turdle, just since o the way ourparents generally do things and be so that's that, but the biggest one- and Ithink, what's really helped me with the kids- is mine. So the principle ofminds is, is I mean it's not just as in your yourpiny little human mind, but it's the principle of universal mind, so whatever whatever?That is, whether that's the universe, whether that God, whatever people, want to call it. Iguess I never have. You Know Me, carry I've never ever been in sertraline atall. It's never made any sense to me. Not that I don't. I don't know, I wouldn't say I didn'tfeel spiritual. I guess, but I was justdared against it, because anybody tried to explain anything like that. To me itbecame religious and none of not make sense because it was always a lap. Anelement of sexism in that it was all, is a big element of homophobia in that,and there was always a big element of judgment and the fat a sense O me. Howcan any sort of your good thing judge others and make judge others to bebetter than other? So I always despirit religion, because I just felt like aman mad been nonsense to me, but that's whatthe three ps really did for me. It's IT's before that! It's before all ofthat, so it's you know. Every sort of religion is pointing to the same thing. It's just, but it's one man's story,isn't it it's lost in the translation, that's lost in the words and it's lostin the interpretation as soon as it is put in towards it's it's it's steppedinto the form hasn't it. You know it's gone from the form of dirt to worldinto the form. So I guess what Sydney Bank is pointed to as universal minds.I suppose I've always felt the same. Really. You know I consider myselfspiritual, but not religious at all. My Dad was always an atheist, yet Iguess his faith was more placed in science and he did believe there wassomething out there, but again, not something he would name Gods, and you know when you lose a loved one.You've. Recently lost your mom and I lost my dad within the last year and you do sort of question the natureof faith and that sort of thing, and for me it is about sort of atransference of energy. You know we were all made from Stardust billions of yearsago when we came in to Ben and when we die, whether recreated orwhether we're buried we go back into the earth. We go back into the elementsand you know we will become stardust again at some point in that cycle willcontinue and continue, and you know, I don't believe that when,when someone dies the lights go out, I think that energy, you know energycan't be destroyed or created, so that energy was alwaysthere in some form. It was that energy that caused the bigbang and that caused life, and that just continues in one wonderful cycleso yeah. I, this kind of philosophy, if you want tocall it philosophy or just the belief system, is something that resonates with me.Yes, it's that sense that we are all we're all connected to that. We're allwe're all connected to the same sort of universal energy or whatever you wantto call it whatever was there before...

...the Big Bang and that's time less and never ending.So you know I started to recognize that not only have I got that well beingthat unbreakable always accessible, that is within me, always whenever I need toaccess it, but my kids have to why realize it? I don't need to teach them.I think I felt like as a parent as a heavy burden of responsibility like Ineeded to help them become wise. I needed to helpthem fight, learn common sense. I needed to keep them safe in the world Ineeded to onstrate ies to get through, and when I came across this, I realizethat everyone's born with this. This isn't something that we need to learn.We've got it. You know, and if you think about before the age of three before sort ofthe con, you know concepts of formed in children they constantly living in asense of well being m. it's just there. They live in the moment. The fullypresent you know, motions come and go highs. Extreme highs, extreme loa,fully present everything's wow. When the amazing that's cut, that's what weare. That's that's how we're born and the only thing that changes is when westart to form concepts and constructs and not to form these conditions. IdeasReally, but it does not to say that it's notout still there, it's just covered up by our or thought I was thinking out or our taking too much taking our thoughts too seriously. Iguess so yes to see in that. My kids havethat you know now. I is in the agents I work with then with my kids and Imyself, no matter how wobbly I get, no matter how anxious I get. I know thatI've always got that well, being mental health. Is there it's not breakable,apart from the layers and layers thinking, sometimes clouds my vision ofit. It's how it might thought in action. Manifest then way to access that isjust to try and let the snow globe settle. Yeah. You want to see Santer inthe snow globe, you're not going to find him by shaking the Snow Glow Takis,never on he or you just got to put it down to a l, and he look here. So it'sthe same concept of when you feel yourself getting all worked up. Thebest thing you can possibly do is just right. Stop still so yeah, finding calmpiece of mind. That's why people feel so great in nature, because you're whenyou're in nature, you, you generally are more present you more becauseyou've got all you know so many beautiful surroundings bars and sky andtrees. It's very easy to find presents in that environment, and I think that'swhy covets been so hard. A lot of people have been stuck on their ownanalyzing. You know really caught in their own heads. You know left out, you know sometimeslet out in nature and less less present with other people, it's very easy toget lost in your own thoughts, bibles and and yeah so yeah. So I think yeah see in mentalhealth as a an inate thing and seeing that in my patience as well as soPolitians wiens me with a million problems, but rather than jumping onthat story and being sucked down that and wipon with them. I not that I don't respect what theproblem I've come with and not that I won't support them with that, but Ialso see the health in them a means like. I have a very different approachand the same with my kids when they're having a big melt, then they are reallyhaving a bit of a crisis. So I don't think, Oh my God Sais, you know,what's happened to say Ben then my do ses going to be broken and ill ever.You know. I know that I can't be scarred for life that you know and I try and connectwith that and I think that helps the bring them back and settle them. Idon't make a big deal of things. I guess so yeah. I think the way we approached,I think the way we approached mental health. You know we was we very muchtalk about the mental health pandemic that we're in, and we are isn't thatcrazy, because we are, you know the most advanced society. You know, we'vegot everything, we've got, we've got so much knowledge, but it'snot it's not intellect that is not more in flat that we need it's more getting back in touch withour own intuition, our own common sense. You know, there's a lot to be saidabout the way that people used to live to the way we live now. Ten O leadinformation, leads social media led and it's evidince Ted with our own commonsense, and it's just learning to be back intouch with that really and not so with the kids when they are trying to make abig decisions used to be like. Oh, let... let me problem himselve with mypatients. Let me sort this out for your right. What's the problem, let me helpyou fix it, because it's a problem than he's fixing, I will be like. Well whatdo you think? What feels right? You know what what what feels right for you?What have you done so far? What feels good? Well, you know just try and takea minute to think about, what's feeling right for you and yeah and that that's that's a reallydifferent, it's so simple, but it's a really different way of approachingthings, and I just feel my kids are just you know they. They have wabbles, butgenerally, not not so many as they used to we'll see it there. Only twelveyou've still got more. We Need Pars to go I've well. I've been reading up onthis or the last couple of days been seeing this phrase, thinking versusunderstanding and interesting. They not really related to this chat, but I wasjust pondering thought the other day and you know, and that awareness solvetthat consciousness of thought and that it comes from us, and I think I evenput on facebook just just that of interest that you know how do peoplethink, because I have always assumed that everyone thinks like me and in theactual process, is that I tend to think in sentences and monologues and that conversation that's runningthrough my head running through my head, and there are times that it's moreabstract and I will feel a feeling or I'll. I realize I'm thinking aboutsomething. I wasn't really thinking anything. It's just all of a sudden.I'm thinking about my dad. You know something like that or I find myself inthe kitchen. Oh I'm hungry, but generally I will tend to think in forfull on sentences or words and yeah. I was shocked to sort of I seen anarticle on twitter in which some one had said. Yeah. There are two typesreally those that are more visual and visual and conceptual and abstract, andthen they have this abstract notion. That is thought which they then putinto words consciously when they, when they're communicating that thought orof the word the ones more like me that have this in a monologue within adialogue with it in a question and answer, you know with interview style, go inall the time, and I guess he train re play something likethe three PS. Some people are just not even self away.You know put that question to my mom and she she I don't really know. Idon't know how I think it's hard to think about thinking. So I don't reallyknow what I'm trying to ask. But what is you know the thinking versusunderstanding? And I guess how do we? How do we even become self aware, like,as you said, that those thoughts originate Ns and then it's not externalthings making us in that mood or making us feel like that, but that thesethoughts are sort of they're innated there in US and andthat's where it comes from. Like how do you even become aware of that? It'squite it's a laid sort of concept to get your head around. Isn't it that'sthe thing I mean we're so like in Mersina. We don't even realize we'redoing it. You know when I I think once I started to just recognize. I wasthinking because yeah your soap, your mind is so busy all the time he evenrealize you're doing it, but you know the evidence is there, so I guess it'sjust asking to see the evidence of it. You know Ican think of times where I you know. I used to leave my job and I worked inswanzy and I confirm my car. I could not find my car because I be soold ready stressed in my head already lie upon in the day I didn't evennotice why I park the car. I would be like sometimes I'd be almost in tearsfor forty minutes trained to me work because I just haven't paid anyattention to our part. I could not by my power I assumed it was stolen and ofcourse it wasn't it was. I always found it in the end, but it's justrecognizing how often you know when you're, when you've lost your keysand you're just trying to to the house sad down and you just going mad friendto find them, and then the moment you stop looking yeah is the moment. Youfind them, and it's seeing those examples. You know as soon as I stoplooking for the car eventually, you know it just appears. Doesn't it sothat the more you recognize that actually the thinking is not you, don'tit's not required to the outcome will happen on its ownthinking is not necessary. You got your wisdom. What will so this sort of adeep thought? It's not like. We never really clear of thoughts, but there's athought that comes from your act like a peep of feeling and there's a thoughtthat spins around in the friends of your mind. That is, you know, is adifference between that. Well to see the difference, and I thinkthe main thing is just being in tune...

...with your mood. You know if, if youit's just recognizing when you're in the low mood you thought spiral andseeing that you know and it's just being aware of it and I I think peoplethink that they have to control their line, that they have to al and it's Iabsolutely impossible, but the it's just not possible thoughts just comeand go, but to see that that's transient and there's always is alwaysthis human experience is always this. There is never a flat line. You know that that's justnobody is that way, and it's and just to see the humanness of the ups and thedown. Now I used to do a tetes to Brownie groups, and I would say, wouldyou rather go to cinema and see a film that was nice and quite good and happy?And you know not my cappen, but you know that's safe and you know Isigodowe on to go and see a film where there's like drum- and you know,there's there's scary bits and there's exciting bits and there's you know youknow really a really motion of it and you cried and you lot what film wouldyou want to go and see? You know what Tom has by the like o the second t s,that's human emotion, you know life. Is You don't nobody wants to be on a fatouate? The low follow is followed by the high. So you know whatever crisishappens, it's you know when we hit the unknown and I think we fear it. Don'twe we fear the unknown, but actually I've learned to see that when you getto part where you don't know, that's exciting bit, because it meansthat something brand new is going to it's going to appear so actually theend known becomes much more exciting. Now I don't hear it so if we become aware that theseunconscious thoughts can spill over into our conscious mind and sort of master that or kind of stopit in its tracks. What would you say is, like the main benefit of that, the more you learn to like just not letyour thoughts just let them come and go and not grab them, not o grab andanalyze them and more space. That's created in your mind. I Ewen. I startlike I got look a every everything got so much to do the clock. Just it movesmuch more slowly, perhaps so many more hours in my day, because I'm notwasting them like going through all this all the time. My mind is less busy, so I sleep better. I don't reallystruggle with sleep in and I just much more done without having to don make so many lists. I don't preparefor speeches or presentations. I just like. I Trust I gamble with. I know Iknow I'll need whatever I need to know is going to come. You know I've beenenough. I know enough trust, my instinct and it's so much more sensewhen you, when you work when you live life that way so I went back into job.I was a manager rather than thinking of my God. What's a managing need to atheory of a manager, one of the pillars of practice, Blah Blah Blah Blah BlahBlah Blah Blah Blah. I just I just gone into it in myself and I'll. Just youknow present is everything so like really truly truly listening to your staff and your patients. That'sit really really really being open and trying to listen without judgment thatthat's like that's a that's it really. You know you can really be present withpeople generally, you hear so much more and you know the answers to you know justanec yeah, so yeah it's hard to explain, but I think the main thing is just recognizing that you are, you arethinking. Does it just it? We just slowly see the connection and not behard on yourself. But Oh. Why am I thinking that? I don't as think thatyou know at least think something else. It's like! Okay, you're I go again, youknow probably need to slow down, probably be a good idea to walk the dogright now, probably be a good idea to just take a break. You know, whereas Iused to think I just had to keep working harder. I need to do more hourson the PC I needed to at work and the more stress I got the more I felt Ineed to do, but, like my partner, who is very prone to stress, I can letround go and sit in the garden. Just take five minutes, you'll be moreproductive. If we take five minutes out, then another four hours in that stateof mind go and let your to just settle saddle on mine and that's why I try andtell my kids, you know like just you know going into and just try and let you you know, don't do too muchframing before an exam. Just you know, just main thing is just trying to saycool, you know, just don't don't don't don't get worked at ordon't get too often your head so yeah. I think osises today and then, like youknow, I didn't get to work that no, I was okay, I didn't do here, so I thinkI hate it that I caught the three pace, so I've absolutely hates it, but I kindof do it covertly and I... talking about these principlesindividually. It sounds like your state in theobvious you know, because it just makes sensewhen you break it down. You know, but then, when you combine the principle ofmind consciousness and thought it's that very combination that makes aperson's you know creative powers and limited the problem is as soon as you give it aname. You know the three principles of fortin eat: health. When you give it that name, you instantly get the deniers.The conspiracy theorist, the people that call it new age, hippy memberjumbo and say things like. If you open your mind too much, then your brainswill fall out yeah. We spoke about three PAS quite a lot and I alwaysthink you know the sort of people I mean there, people in my life that Ithink would really benefit from it. We've probably spoke, you knowprivately about the a certain people that they would. You know be reallygreat if they sort of embraced it and just were open to it, but I know list two or three people that wouldprobably benefit the most would probably be the most resistant to it.What would you say to someone like that? I think I think when I first cameacross it, I felt like an did to teach it to everybody and rabbit downeveryone's throats and then I think, that's quite common, and then Irealized actually it's not necessary because we're all we're all living itall time, a we're all in everall exactly the same, but some of us are more caught up inour thinking than others. So I think the more you come to people from that place yourselfand more sense. If you are in it, you you become a tune in folk to others. Iused to think I had to. I had to give it to I, because I had to teach it Ihad. I had to get it and it's not about that at all more. I I fall into that space myself, but this sort of it's just a tunefuleffect on other people, so yeah and that's it really just youknow the more you slow down the more you. Let your mind settle it's sort of Morich other people sortof fall into that. If you'll, if you all that presence, that's what theyfall into more so you know, and if you recognize getting out and about in thegreen space or whatever helps your thoughts settle, and you take thatperson along with you. You know you don't have talk about threeps, it'sjust yeah, you know the more you can find opportunities that your mind set,o the more so as soon as your mind, settles you're, open to pure newthoughts or rather than just your incessant learn, condition thinking assoon as your mind empty. So you know some people say when they're running orsome people say when they're in the shower world, so people say when theyrock climbing, or you know the thing there are. There are certain times oractivities or ways where you feel in mind fly as Baying Golf. I don't knowhis way, sometimes our mind clear as itself doesn't it or when youwith your friends when you just loving your head off and you're in greatcompany, an your mind clears then ran new stuff comes in. I I take I just a and race to the hall Bescriberis Time, and I...

I take it. I just a race, Beso yeah, it's and it's that'swhere all the new ideas come from, and you know I recognize that you've alwaysbeen amazing at that you've always been so creative you're, always coming upwith new stuff. Constantly you find you're in tune with that. You know so you you know I just think you're far,so it's not a case. We need to know it because they've got it, you knoweveryone's it. So it's yeah. It's just. I think funny. You said about whetherit be playing golf gone for a walk, go for N, I se. As you know, I used to dolong distance running and it might go inside with the time that I had areally big script to learn. For I don't know Christmas play that was coming up.I think I'll go in a long run and I'll practice. My lines I couldn't be onthat run and my mind would just be blank, and if I tried to do it, Icouldn't do it because I was just in that mode of I'm just not thinking nowyou know which is yeah, it's nice to find those moments or whether it belike playing the guitar or or something creative. It doesn't have to becreative if someone's not that way. Inclined Yeah- and you mentioned yourkids a lot, and I think I think this yeah. This is so beneficialto young people that can, you know so, get trapped in negative patterns ofthought and whether it be just kind of what they see in theirparents. Let you say it sort of rubs off. I mean I'm sure that I come invery, very stressed and that you know it does affect the mood of the kidswhen me, and male maybe have had a bad day and there's a tension in the airand then the IT rubs off on the kids and yeah. Do you think- and I know you'vedone- work with young people? I know like probably at the started doing it.You had a group of seven willows. Friends, didn't you do in a almost alittle course in it, but they've just said it almost doesn'tneed to be taught it's kind of the approach, I'm thinking a classroomteacher. Would it be better to give them training in that so that theirapproach is in the classroom are just naturally doing it or do you think itwould benefit young people like the Brownies Group to sort o learnabout it and Oh yeah? I think I mean it says thereare loads of groups that do it there's a there's. Anorganization called I heart, you just really rolls out in laws of schools inLondon, have had really amazing sort of they've done. Research outcomeson it, Frean there's an American. The Wat I trained with was the spark MarkAssociation, the Pot Organization, a spark initiative. That's it I fin withthem and yeah they've done lows and those work in the state. So it's cutand there's little of videos on you can youtube it to kids talking about howthey, how they see I've got a video of willowactually out to Shal, send it to later and will a sort of reflections on thechanges in our house a few years ago, and she was about eight yeah yeah, so I definitely yeah being. It isreally helpful. This is a daytoday thing, but it's a lovely thing to ateachin school. It seems to be an emphasis during the current climate on wellness and and good mental health. You know, and it's great to seeorganizations like the Royal College of Psychiatry taken on an artist inresidence, poet and playwright, Patrick Jones, and while there is a lot beingden, you know I do always think there could be more being done. Do you think there should be anemphasis within health care on the sort of philosophies of the threeprinciples, with all good intentions we are trying to help, but what we'redoing is having the opposite effect. We are, you know, we've just become so over diagnostic over the years that youknow the, if ten or whatever, that the list is just grown and grown and growna grown. A girl at all the mental health diagnosis are just who dens. Iguess what the three PS points back to is that there's there's only one mental illness andthat's that's believing you're thinking... be true and that that's still anextreme. It's a free near like Bill Peter. It was a psychicist to sayskitterin a is just it's just you know, thought respect thefacts and, and and people can get from that when theypeople can come out of that when they see whether you know it's, I thinkwe'll just assume that without diagnosis, someone's broken account befixed, but that's because that's because they've been told that alltheir lives. You know when someone sees the healthin them and actually points them back to that it can be huge, and my momalways thought she'd seen those a psychiatrist of the years and she wasled to believe she was broken and I think she believed it, but I believedit, but I'm pretty sure she did yeah, but I don't think my dad ever hadthat PROC, I think, even from a young age, you know my dad. Always I think if you think how I, how like wedeal with it in now, childhood Damea have the approach that we've takenschools and young mental health. Now it would be the opposite of what my dadsaid. So when I was bar when enewed I were very young, I membered sepation anwe. The worst sort of most traumatic memory is coming home running into mymomes room and she tried to kill herself, so she just had bloody wristand raise blades on the side table and she was sort of semi, conies and reallyscary. I think I was I utmust have been about six orsomething fiable. Six and theme was a few years. Older, really really scaryexperience and you know we'd run to get dad and she being blue lighted, ahospital, and I just remember that evening my dad saying to M- and I youknow you know mums monoamine, not very happyat the moment, but you know she's going to be okay and you're. Okay, you knowit's all right, give me a cuddle. You know you're, okay, and it sounds sosimple, but how often now do we say? Oh Tis, a dome,or this is the God at this. You know good scar, you for life. What you'veseen now you can never run see. You know my maybe that you're going to needcounseling, for I not say that's, it's not coming from the it's come from. Areally kind place is coming from wanting to help kids, but by given theeunderstanding that your experiences is an outside in experience and whathappens to you will affect you for life, you know, will scar you nothing on the outside can can canreally do that, just you're thinking about it. You know if someone tells me thatthat's as a child, I'm told that my experience can can con Sary, which,like that had never did my towers very much you're, okay, you know you're,okay, mom's going to be okay, it's, but he could have dealt with it verydifferently and then he could have been vigilantly watching the NEMAEA. I alsodo the are they I think. Okay, has this affected? It never eves. Very much youjust we're. Gon You know is, is this is allright very much played it down, but was very loving and very kind. You know from very good intentions:We've fallen into the opposite, you know, and kids are so you know hit's. Thisconcept of you have anxiety in of in Xi. Anxiety is not an object that we cancarry in a bag. It. It's anxiety, isn't what we are. It's where we are. Youknow it's where we are at this given moment and we all both through thosemoments of anxiety. It's not just because we had we feel anxiety. In thismoment it doesn't mean that we have anxiety and that's going to besomething. We always have my kids kind of sad, all right son, so in school today, she's gotanxiety. So what she s doctor I to she was feeling anxious today you know she's got unsized, she does, but justbecause she thought I'm just a age doesn't always go to di them. Said me. He said biggest compliment isever saidly said on man, you're, not a worrying them. Are you. I was a la what he said. Oh I'm reallyglad that you're, not one of the one of the worrying Mons. I so gosh thatthat's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. I said YEA, No, you don'treally worry about stuff, you said, but I thil I do. I think I'm going to growup to be a worrier. I worry a lot and I said I worry a lot more when I was akid don't music, just because I don't worry not or the I didn't massivelywere he loaded and I was a kid, but just because you worry now it doesn'tmean you're always going to be that way. You know I've learnt to where he lagsand I'm sure you will too you know so. Okay, he was already placed anddiagnosis a nous pesthered, I'm just Rieke crashing that, but I could- and Iprobably could it three four years ago we like, I was the Snit Kid HAP. It'sgoing to be this because I see this nowand is always what you get.

Definitely for me when I'm being my creative self,I feel that the three PS are all workingtogether in absolute harmony. It usually manifests in musical creationsfor me writing a song getting a spark, aninput, inspiration from somewhere thinking of a lyric that just sums upwhat I'm feeling inside, when I haven't really been able to put my finger on it coming up with a malady from nowhere.You know, sometimes it it manifests itself. Just when I'm listening tomusic, I do find music very powerful and the therapeutic powers of music anddeniable, particularly in my line of work. What specific songs have had? You know a great impact on you and on your mental health and your wellbeing in a profound level, and why could be recent? It could be somethingyou've written yourself. It could be a song that you have parent you to singto you as a kid, but something that you think is really had a positive impacton your mental health, and you know you hear it now and it takes you to thatplace. You know always never fails to to bring on these emotion. It doesn't even necessarily have to bepositive emotions because sometimes crying is the emotion that we need tofeel and sometimes grief is the emotion we need to feel and that isn'tnecessarily a negative. Is it so is necessarily go, be a happy song a asI'm saying just something that is impacted. You three songs. What O o one, if you canonly think of one, is fine, but my guess is different songs impart fordifferent reasons. Don't they I mean, I thought you were going to askme for a cook song and my mind went straight to carry sally, so it a song that really I just absit wetsong that I love to take me back to really every time in I lies and wetravel together was full loon. I send a guess which in I going to say,then I I'm trying to think of the boses now yeah you're on my shade. Yes, AH, can I and can be, can say I can see Tini dispensame Iwin, I I I thinki get...

...when I to that song takes me to a really happyplace, yeah, it's just a song about friendship, and you know that was thetime in our lives where we just were very much living in the present moment,and I think that is that is contentment. Isn't it and it's not it's not aboutthat place. It's about really not having a care in the world.You know just being totally spontaneous and just responding to every experienceand grasping everything that came in my way so yeah. I really connect that timein our lives. With that feeling of just yeah just really fully immersed in themoment, and that's just such a lovely way to live life, you know so yes, sothat song, you want to weave that with him as a really good D, and I guess tochildhood sort of feeling of security. There's my dad- and I was one aboutheart if dad the dad ever it didn't, stop still and gave me a little bit ofthis time. I was a very hard worker. Our Hobby would be to sit together andwork at the lyrics of the songs. We, let me see, is be a pencil and we getthe cassette player has regarding pause. Your wine fors run until we've writtenall the lyrics of a song down. So that's a really happy memory, so I guess I'm just thinking of thesort of album. We would have done that with so when the those days it would be sortof meal, young, Steve Millerand or the king or opden yeah. I guess when I felt ill my mammasused to put Steven Miller and the albe Mon so just used to play out until Ifell asleep, so my favorite album, but it was the song that sent its asecurity album. I guess so. ABRECADEBRA and yeah t s an in round. It goes. I you O my name. I eat like a fur in fermete baby, the e just a feeling that connects you with aa and what about now? What about current artist? Is there an artist thatjust kind of does it for you? I I A lucky place yeah. I guess if Iwant to just sing at the top of my voice, it would probably I don't know-I'm not so good at keeping up at the middle,but I do quite like listening to the Anela Habits, yeah, just lovely sort of happyuplifting pelters. I guess that sort of stuff, soulful stuff yeah we are getting strong, now is taking the time to stop. Don't know, I did it for I to know thatit was a weak oceaxe et space. Do in e o The...

I just love. We very much what we've been casting over an hournow, that's flown by. Thank you for that. I saw ed it in alittle bit sad it in some songs. I let you know what it's ready. Let Me Watch it thanks. So Atlin, okay, it take care by join us next time when I interviewMakala Cock Line Outer Loge and disability rights, Tackit t.

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