Episode · 1 year ago

Mouth-Off BONUS episode part 5: Be Pure Be Vigilant Behave


Mouth-Off is a platform for marginalised groups to get their stories heard. Episodes cover a wide range of topics from inequality and class divides to race and alcoholism. 

This is the final instalment to our Manic Street Preachers themed BONUS mini-series Be Pure, Be Vigilant, Behave. In part 5, Mouth-Off's host Clary Saddler interviews multi-instrumentalist, session musician, music tutor and my sometimes CWTCH band mate CAROL JAYNE NORMAN. We delve into 10 Manic Street Preachers tracks – some well-known, some fan favourites, some divisive tracks, and my favourite Manic’s B-side of all time. Carol shares her musical perspectives on these songs, as well as giving us some juicy James Dean Bradfield anecdotes. 

NB, although advertised as a guest in this episode, due to work commitments, drummer Sally Ann Isles is no longer able to feature in this episode. 


Intro Music - music by Clary Saddler 

A Design for Life - lyrics by Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

If you Tolerate this Your Children will be Next - lyrics by Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

You’re Tender and You’re Tired - lyrics by Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Condemned to Rock and Roll - lyrics by Edwards and Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Sleepflower – lyrics by Edwards and Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Kevin Carter - lyrics by Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Removeables - lyrics by Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Ocean Spray – lyrics by Bradfield, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Donkeys – lyrics by Edwards and Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

Miss Europa Disco Dancer - lyrics by Wire, music by Bradfield and Moore 

I Turn to you - lyrics by Saddler, music by Saddler

Outro Music - music by Clary Saddler 

Carol Jayne Norman’s top 10 Manic Street Preachers Spotify Playlist: 

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Welcome to mouth off, a podcast for and about marginalized communities. My name is clary Sadler. On on today's episode, I'm continuing with our bonus miniseries be pure, be vigilant, behave. Today I'll be interviewing Bass player and session musician Carol Jane Norman, the very talented musicians whom I've had the pleasure of knowing for a very long time. I've also played with with my band cutch, as well as other charity events. Carols had experiences with the members of Manic Street preachers and greed to come on the podcast tonight and share anecdotal stories with you all. Welcome to the show, so thank you for coming on podcast, Carol. As you know, I've been doing a little bonus mini series over the past few episodes. It's called be poor, be vigilant, behave, and we're looking at body of work of Manic Street preachers, a band that I sort of consider, I guess, a band that have, you know, marginalized groups issues, I guess, as close causes to their hearts. A lot of their songs, you know, will feature how the working classes of being downtrodden and risen above or things like that. They've written a song about, hmm, a black actor called Poul Robson which I think is the album that you became familiar with them on, the know your enemy album, HMM, and lots of other I guess, what other other bands might consider too maybe to taboo to include in a song. The mannix you can guarantee of gone there at some point or another for better off away. Sometimes it may fall in a bit flat on its face, but generally with really sort of well intentions and you know whether it be feminist issues or gender issues etc. So that's kind of why I wanted to do this. I guess I'm a fan. I mean yourself. When did you first become aware of that name? Anna Stout preachers, who they were? Probably back about twenty four, twenty three, twenty four years ago my kids were going down to grassroots in Charles Street and I first became aware of the three Welsh groups then. You know, it was a Mannix, it was Catatonia and it was stereophonics. They were the big Welsh bands at the time, and didn't really listen to them that much because I was busy being a memo at that time. But as I got a little bit older, I still to getting a bit more intrigued by them, and then they released design for life and I just fell in love with it. was, it was what night I shall piece. I wish I had a bottle to the shore. Well, that was going to be my next question then. So I guess what was the song that maybe first got you hooked or got, yeah, got you interested. You know that opening line libraries gave us power. I was a book worm and for somebody to write a song about libraries, that was really interesting. So I just had to listen closer and started understanding some more...

...of their lyrics, some of their songs and just became enamored with them. Yeah, I mean had a writer on the podcast two episodes ago called Stephen Lee Naish, who's written a couple of books about the MANNIX. He's written about the album though, your enemy, which I just spoke about. So that was the album in which the song ocean spray is featured on, which is a song you know well, and he's also just written about their career in general, and I guess that what the way he came at it was looking at you know, as you say, Delvin deeper into the lyrics. You know, on on first listen, your average, I don't know, lad at the pub drinking a few pints before going to watch the rugby might listen to a line like we don't talk about love, we only want to get drunk and we all like yeah, think it's a song, but yeah, a little bit like Blair and their Song Park Life, or girls and boys, you know, bit a Laddie Song. And actually, you know, what he pointed out about them, which is just so true of so many of their songs, is they're a deeper reads on all of the lyrics, even if on the surface it seems to be something like that. You know actually it's talking about, you know, how the working classes. Maybe that is how they feel and they live for the weekend and you know that's all they want to do is get drug don't know so much about older times because, and you know their mine come from a mining community and back in those days they would work for your week, really hard and they would be too tired to feel love and affection thing. So that was just get down to it, get down the pit, get home, get tin baths, have a couple of points down the Bourbons, dagger home. Yeah, and that's it. That was their lives and I think that, to some extent, was what they were trying to achieve when they wrote that song as to portrait an actual picture of the real, true, nitty gritty working class, as it was not today's working class. I know then it could be about today's working class as well. So it kind of like goes across the board a bit, it does, and I think, yeah, that that that line of even what is a class divide now it becomes so blurred, you know, particularly so many people, for instance, can go to university just by getting a student loan, you know, almost like you rise into a different class bracket just by the fact that you attend university and you're going to come out with a degree at the end of it, never mind that you've got into sort of eight grands of debt, student loan debt, yet to fund it. So you've mentioned a design for life there. Do you have any other sort of favorite favorite songs of theirs? The spring to mind to tolerate. This is a song that I particularly like because I just like the feeling of the song, that opening where you've got that phasing of the guitar when it comes in it's just it's just something really deeper nice about it. I guess I can't put that sounds into words. It just instantly recognize that song as soon as you hear the First Ping of that phasing coming in. It's wonderful children to the brads sobs fast as into a God this one. If you put up with rubbish in this life, what ch answer of the children got? Definitely, you know, you've got to stand up and fight...

...for your kids, and I think this is what the song is getting to. If you don't get up and fight, your kids are just going to fall float on their faces. HMM, and it's a warning. Definitely. You know, it's interesting you enter that sound that sort of comes in instantly recognizable as that track, because there's a podcast called what is music? If you haven't heard it, do check it out. It's really fascinating and they sort of do a deep dive into the career. Well, they started with a Manni, so'll do a deep dive into a band. So looking at their albums, you know, album by album, and then they'll do a track by track analysis of each song on the album's and they did have producer called Dave Aranger on who produced that album, which, if you tolerate this, you children will be next, came off, which is this is my truth, tell me yours, and he said that what James Dean Bradfield wanted to go for in that opening was that, you know, almost like imagine the sound of a comet coming down from space to Earth, and that's what he told the producer, Dave are anger, that that's what I want to emulate. And you know, it kind of does a voke something like that. You know that that phased sort of sound. You can see what he was going for. An interestingly, you know you've picked up on on that message of the song because you know, I mean Manni's a very much a left leaning band politically, so they were furious to find out that the BNP used that song as part of their campaign and it was like absolutely not. They were livid. So that quickly got a pulled. But yeah, definitely. You know, it's just so many layer is and of course the song like that, also being number one and being about the Spanish civil war, which is sort of the background of that Song's just amazing to think that in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven, ninety eight you know, a band from South Wales writing a song about the Spanish civil war got number one in the charts when you had the likes of Oasis and Blair and all that Britpop stuff, you know. So we've mentioned you've had a little bit of an encounter with James Dean Bradfield in the past. You want to tell us about that, how it came about and what was the experience like for you? Okay, what happens? It was about twenty years ago. There was a competition on the now finished Red Dragon Radio and it was the Jason Harold Breakfast show. So he was running a competition so that people could go and watch a studio set being performed by James Dean Bradfield life. So every morning all these parents were bringing in and they were saying things like, oh well, I'm a great big Mannix Fan and I would love to win the competition. And Oh my mum's and Mannix Fan on my brothers and Mannix Fan. And this is going on every morning, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and I'm trying to ring every morning to get through because I wanted to go and take my kids down to watch this famous Welsh musician perform live the free because I was a skin single parents. Yeah, so on a Friday morning I'm trying to get through. My son is dawdling, he's not getting up out of bed, my daughter's nagging me for all sorts of things and I'm trying to ee in this school uniforms. So I've got the phone hitched under my left ear with my shoulder, I'm ine in their uniforms with my right hand and I got through and James, sorry hat jake, Jason Harrold, said to me. So then, what's your reason that you would like to win these tickets as because I'm the oldest musher in town and I want to give my kids some street credibility and I won't Ha. So with that. With that, we went down to the studio, I think it was about a week later, and we're taken into studio be. Now James Dean Bradfield was in Studio A, which in the studio down in Cardiff Bay outlooked onto the main walkway in the big centered that the Cardiff Bay Center. So Anyway, I'm sat on the floor in the studio with my kids and Emma Hignet, who is at the time the weather report. Lady. My daughter Let it slip to her that I had an ECO twelve string guitar in the boots of my car. So Emma hignets somehow managed to persuade my daughter to get my car key's off me and then came back in carrying my guitar and I...

...looked at said why have you got my guitar and she said go on, play it and I said I can't, James Dean Bradfield's playing. She said no, just play along. Okay, so I picked it up, I tuned into his pitch and I just started playing along and about ten minutes, fifteen minutes later, in walks James Dean Bradfield and he says why are you left? Oh, Oh, you got any cold twelve string or can I played? You are you can have this one, and he handed his Spanish guitar and it was really battered. He said, or don't worry about that, I love he said he thought Castro played that one last week and I'm okay, so come on, come on me and took me into studio a. So I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. So I went into studio a with him, my two kids and the sounds engineer and he plunked me on a stool next to him. So we just started twiddling around playing guitar together. He taught me to play ocean spray and played. If you tolerate this, your children will be next. And it was the most wonderful experience and my children were absolutely blown away because outside was one of my son's friends who was one of the biggest mannix fans ever. He had them tattooed all over his body and he's spotted my son in this duty to paint it in there. My son said, I'm in my mum. She's playing with James Dean Bradfield. So that was that encounter. Then about a year or so later, my now deceased partner had bought me some tickets to go and see the Mannix. Well, unfortunately passed away just a couple of weeks before the gigs, so I didn't really want to go to it, but my daughter said, oh, come on them, he wouldn't want you to waste the tickets, so we went along. So after the GIG my daughter said to me, Oh, can we go backstage? It was in the Cardiff Motor point she said, can we go backstage? I said okay. So we walked around to the back of the studio and there they all are. There's nicky wire, this show more and there's James Dean Bradfield and there's hundreds of people all with their pens and their little autograph books. Yeah, and the James Tine Bradfields wotted me and he came on in hope's. Do I you look? You still look at that twelve string and everyone was just looking. Okay, it's a yes, I have thank you very much. So that was that? That wow. Yeah, I mean Nice that he remembered you as well. Oh, I know when I was lucky enough to get their autograph. Well, I got James C Bradfield's autograph and he signed a copy of no your enemy for me. So they're amongst my treasured autograph pictures now. Yeah, you know, it's I don't know him. I've met him on a handful occasions, but they all seem very approachable, nice and friendly. I was got a lot of time for the fans, but I think, yeah, just impressed by musical talent and obviously to hear you playing and you know, for them to come in and say I'll check this out, and then him to invite you into jam with him. Is Yeah, it was lovely. It was such it was such an incentive because, you know, was a musician. You get to a point where life gets in the way, HMM, and my life had gotten in the way quite a lot and I wasn't a very confident musician for a long time. But then he gave me confidence and it's like well, if you can tolerate this, this, then your music career will be near here. Yeah, definitely, it was always lovely. So did I mean, do you have a copy that? Was that recorded? Did someone give you, know, give you a copy of it? There is, some of it is on tape somewhere. Yeah, I'm not sure where, but I should have the tape in the house somewhere. Anything is I don't have a cassette player anymore. Yeah, Oh, why, I've got one carol. You'd have to add dig it out and I left to pop it on the I'll transfer it. So it's digital. Fear. Of course, things like that predate the Internet, or maybe not predate the Internet, but certainly you know, radio shows wouldn't have been going via the Internet at that point with they so so much. You still readily available at your fingertips now, which it's great in one...

...way. I suppose it's there forever as a record of what has happens. But when you think about the way people consume music now, you know, with your spotifyes and yet apple music, itunes, you know, you it's very rare to own a physical download and not physical download, a physical yeah, physical copy of something. I mean I always make a point of purchasing CDs, iven I had still by cassettes, you know, sometimes just because I want the version of whatever album on a cassette as well, and the LP and the you know, and the CD. I suppose I'm a little bit of a collector in that sense. Yes, nice to that. That happened and it was on the radio. That must be nice, fear. And what was really nice as well, as my son's friend saw it, so there was a witness to the occasion. Yeah, you like, because that sort of thing doesn't normally happen. MMM, you know that somebody who you've heard about, who's famous, says come in love, come and play guitar with me. That doesn't happen, but it's happened and it happened to me and it was fabulous. So I gave you a little bit of homework, which was I but I said you a list of songs. But what I'll do because obviously some of them you knew, but some of them would have been completely unfamiliar. So just kind of from one musician to another, just get your initial feel for it. Maybe might like something lyrically or the melody, or you just think it's a cracking good riff or baseline. So I can share my sound via zooms or what I will do is play it on here. I'll do the whole song, but I'll do a little clip for you. So the first one is your tender and you're tired, which is off the album. This is my truth. Tell me Os you so it's not true. Yes, you're desperate to freak, to see the sadness that's inside. Just sit back and the song always puts a lumping bike crops. Yeah, so is that? What are your initial sort of things you responding to in that? Do you think? Well, it's the emotion portraits. He really really cares about somebody there enough to see all the pain that this suffering. MMM, and it's he just is I don't know it it it just makes me feel like if that was me listening to something, I just want to open my arms and give him a big coutch. Yeah, yeah, and Sean's drumming is phenomenal in that it really really brings it out. He brings the emotion out in those beats. It's fabulous. Yeah, I also love James's voice in that song particularly. It's like he's he always uses his voice as an instrument, but in in that song in particular, I was just feel, like you say, the emotion song. It's raw emotion. Yeah, really comes through. And you know, they never really said who that lyric was about. Obviously they had just lost one of their chief lyricists, Richie Edwards Wax. He lost, presumed dead, gone missing in in. Well, it wasn't just it was nineteen one thousand, nine hundred and ninety five, early February, nineteen ninety five, that he disappeared. But you know, it makes you speculate. Was it about him?...

What was it about an older relative? Even it could be could really fit any situation, admit, but yet kind of reminds me a little bit, you know, listening to it there's such a vagueness about who it's about. The lyrics could apply to anybody. Yes, feeling that way. So, yeah, I must just be about whoever they're singing her pout. You know, it could be anyone. Yeah, like you know, I think. As you know, my my dad passed away last May and a hospice, but early on when he knew we didn't have long left and he was already in the hospice. You know, he was in this no man's land and he actually wasn't feeling that poorly at that point, but knew what was coming. And we're just kept saying, you know, can they just give me a pill and kill me now? And and of that line. You know, you tender and your tie. You don't know whether whether to live or day or just forget about your life, you know, and it's kind of reminds me of that. That the spare yeah, FABS. I love the vibe of kind of almost feels like I'm otow any that piano in the background. I like the Chord progressions as well, because the first time I listened to it, one of the things I do like about the manic songs is a lot of them are unpredictable. MMM, you don't know where they're going to go next. I mean, you know, we all know about, well, maybe not all of us, but a lot of musicians know about the for called trick, since CG a minor ha, but the that's a predictable but he's going into a different realm, you know. He he'll start plays to chords are related and then you'll just go off on a tangent and then bringing a chord that relates to that one and I go off on a different hue. Yeah, what is he doing? And then it just clicks and Oh, that's what he's doing. You just realize how genius a musician he is. Well, not him, all of them. Yeah, definitely really, really good musicians. I really respect them. Yeah, so I did say before we actually spoken here, I gave a little introduction to the episode, which I say you know your background as a musician. You know you've done session work, you've stepped in with a lot of bands, you do open mic night, you've played with my band, Kurt. You've played with loads of bands and you are very much just you'll get up, you'll have a listen. You know your theory minded. So you kind of like you say, you can get the feel for it. You're also very good at playing by ear and yeah, it can be, you know, both a blessing and a curse when you're playing with with an act that that they are. They'd being a little bit Geeky. They're throwing in a couple of unexpected chords and if it takes you a while to follow it like that, I've got to be honest. SOOCH A it. Yeah, musical challenges. I think that's what I enjoy doing open mic so much because I never know who is going to get up, what they're going to play, and I've got to play bass for them. Yeah, and it's so much fun. But anyway, this isn't about me. This is about the money, but it's definitely always good to get and sort of musicians take on things because, as I said, we've had had a writer on. I've had Patrick Jones on, who's rights lyrics himself. He's just last summer Dan even in exile, which is James Dean Bradfield second solo album. So he yeah, check it out if you haven't heard it. Carol's very, very good. It's about them a Chilian activist, Victor Harra, who's murdered in the S S for his communist sympathies. Right, and they've yeah, it's based. It's a concept album, but it's sort of about the life and times of Victor Haara and Patty. Yeah, really, really good if you like progressive rock as well. Definitely worth a listen. Yes, it was interesting getting Patrick's take because he contributed the lyrics to that album. He's a poet, he's a Word Smith. But yeah, it's always good to get a musicians sort of perspective on things because you will often at times hear something that maybe your average Joe, or my mum for instance, who loves music but is not musically minded, just won't pick up on. So from one a very good track to another completely different but in my opinion, also very good track. So this is condemned to rock and roll. I've clicked. I've skipped through the end of the song here, Carol, because it's a sixminute epic track. But for me this song is all about the great hooks and the rifts. So I've just gone towards the end where they start just riffing away.

So here we go. That's the sort of thing I would to hear on my favorite rock radio stage a regularly on repeat. That was awesome. I haven't heard that one before. Yes, that's off their debut album and let me feel like I want to put it on repeat now. And so it down. Work those riffs, something, stop playing. Yeah, I mean I faded it down there. It was still a minute from the end. I just love the way it keeps turning in something different. You kind of think, ask it's going to come to a close now, they're going to bring the vocal back in, and then and then it goes there. So incredibly tight. Yeah, and they really really work well together. So I don't know if it's noticeable to you, but actually that was a debut album and Sewan didn't end up playing any live drums. So the yeah, the producer Steve Brown, who sadly recently died, worked on that album with them in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, I think it was. It was a released in ninety one, so might have been working on it a little bit before then, and he wanted a very specific sound for the drums. This kind of regimented, you know, particular production style. So basically Sean went away and just learnt how to program drums using I don't know, probably wasn't logic then, but whatever digital workstation they were using was probably like drums. That wasn't live drums now. So Sean just went away and learned program all the drums. I came in and did it and then learn to play it. Oh, yeah, so they have played it. I mean don't play that Song live a lot because it's so long and it is so difficult to play. But they have played it live, I think on at least one occasion. I've seen it and yeah, he's doing the live drums on there. But irritatingly, when they they when that album was released in America, the record label, so it's released on Sony, didn't like didn't like the program drums. So just for the American release they got a session drummer in to re record the drive margin. How annoyed Sean Must Be. Yeah, mention that to him. I speak to it. So so, yeah, what do you I mean? I know we didn't. We didn't play it from beginnings. You didn't hear nocal like a lot. Yeah, like I said, I would. I think I'm going to be putting that one on, slowing it down, working out what they do in learning it and then speeding it up my own fingers. Maybe when't Ay, who knows? So know, history repeats itself. I just like to be ready. Yeah, Wow, imagine, imagine they pull you up on stage and say, Oh, what a song? Would you like to play with this Carol condemned to rock and roll please? Ha Ha ha, although would be hilarious, be great. Okay, so that was off their first album, generation terrorist. I'm going to play you one off their second album, now,... against the soul. This song is a fan favorite. They don't play it live often, but it is a fan favor that it always gets requested. And it's called sleep flower. Oh yes, that's another good one, another one I haven't heard before. I like the harmonies. Yeah, I mean it's not. It's particularly in the old in the earlier albums. It's not always easy to pick out the lyrics, but I'll just read you a little bit. So it's basically about insomnia. Someone, whether it be anxiety or they drunk too much or, you know, just their own brains kind of keeping them awake and worried, so that the opening is morning always seems to stale. To justify lament blossoms, our hours, minutes of our lives. Broken thoughts run through your empty mind. At least the beaten dog knows how to lie. I feel like I'm missing pieces of sleep and memory fades to a pale landscape. You are an extinction, a desert heat, a blind illness of my anxiety. WHOA D yeah, HMM, I think people have got anxiety and insomnia should listen to that. HMM. Yeah, definitely. And you know, it kind of even without maybe necessarily be enough to pick out many of the lyrics, I think it kind of personally, I think it's successfully evokes that feeling, a feeling of being on edge and you know, and that sort of baseline going throughout. Yeah, Du do Dod Dud Dude. Yeah, did did? I think I've got it in my head school. Yeah, yeah, what do you what? Body of sort of initial thoughts on it? Well, I like the harmonies in the chorus, so it was it pretty ors. I couldn't quite I can't quite remember now, but I like the heaviness of it. I just love my rock music. You that? Yeah, and it was when it had my head nodding right from the start. It had my fingers tappen on the table. Maybe want to sit and listen to it all the way through more than once. So I think that's what I'll be doing with that one as well. And tastic. Yeah, silent. Listen to some more man Hicks, a lot more mannix. Yeah, what I'll do is I'll pop I'll pop these in the spotify playlist and I'll share it on the podcast and I'll share the link with you, so you've sort of got your own. Okay, I'll playlists of things you might all things you've responded well to. Nice, because sometimes the singles, while they are great, sometimes there is more interesting stuff in the B sides and the album tracks. Oh yeah, discovered many an interest in track that way. But then back in in my today you could do that because you bought a record that and it had to be side on it. These days you don't know what the B sides are. Kids these days just don't know what they missed it. Yeah, exactly, be side, just a and not a thing anymore. I mean you might get an artist that release a deluxe version of their album which has like four or five extra tracks which would have been the side. Yes, yeah, but you know, a band like the mannix would have released like, for example, I think it's the song. I think it's a design for life. There...

...are three versions of it, each of them with two or three different B sides. So from one single you may be looking at five or six B sides and heard of tracks. That is not you won't find on the album. Some, yeah, some of my favorite mannix tracks I've discovered through buying the singles, you know, and what whatever, the B sides we're on there. So yes, it's funny you end up sounded feeling like you sound ancient when you say too, Oh, you don't know what you're missing. Yeah, but it's true. I know chip things change so quickly these days, though, so I can get away the same things like that. Yeah. So, talking about tracks that you might not be familiar with, this is an album track from their groundbreaking one thousand nine hundred and ninety six album. Everything must go this. So the album featured, while it was them as a three piece, it did feature some lyrics that Richie had left behind. So the opening track, Alvis in personator, was a richie lyric. Kevin Carter, which is one of their singles, was a richie lyric, a song called the girl who wanted to be God, and this one, which is called removables. Oh and also another song called small black flowers that grow in the sky. But I will play you removables now. Okay, should find you and change. No one met the host. Misery months to be the bout cull got blood clean again, got floods that again. Yeah, everywhere down. What was like Nirvana grown up, ha ha. Yeah, you know, I've everays seen the NAVANA comparison. Definitely they're in that song. MMM, yeah, Oh God, it's not just me then. Yeah, it just reminded me of if Nirvana the start and I don't know, it's like the layout of it was very similar to a couple of Nirvana tracks I've heard in the past, but they're much more grown up than NAVANA. That makes sense musically, musically more mature. There's a lot more going on there than first listening, and that was my fitst listening. I need to listen to that one again. MMM, I like. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with with that album. It's them everything must go, which is the album that has Kevin Carter and a design for life on right. So familiar with it. But I yeahy Carter and design for life, obviously. So if you listen to the whole album, I would say that the album is more in keeping with the lead singles. Like Australia,...

...everything must go, or designed for life, Kevin Carter to an extent, although that's got more of a Boston overa feel in it, I think, the way they do Kevin Carter. But then that song is almost like a little anomaly. It's sort of the one that just sounds a bit a little bit like they're old style rather than the sort of dare I say Britt Pop, because they're not a Britpop band and they never were. But that sound that they had when they came back and in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six was more in keeping with with the the lead singles and that one just harks back to all the times. But I like it. I don't think it feels out of place and, like you said, it sounds move musically more accomplished than something like Nirvana. MMM, I wonder, you know, do you think the fact that they are using Richie's lyrics, so you know, they don't know what happened to him. He's left behind. This set of lyrics which are quite bleak. Again, I read a little bit. Conscience binds you in chains, trial by stone, Hammer and nails. No one made the holes but me. Misery mourns to be devoured. Killed, God, blood, soiled and clean again, killed, God, blood, soiled skin, dead again, again, everywhere again. So course he had issues with self harm as well. Used to cut himself, used to sort of do it very publicly as a way of a guess, just getting out his anguish and his pain. Do you think that that has influenced the the the sonic decisions they made with how it sounds, and that more grunge's? Yeah, possible, because there was, even though it's reminiscent of Novana. We all know that Kirkbain had quite a lot of issues, HMM, but we don't know so much about Richie. But the same time, we do know that, yes, used to harm himself on stage and things like that, and he did it, from what I gather you did. It is a protest as well. It wasn't just self harming because of pain and anguish inside, although that was a big part of it. Oh yeah, like like when he sort of carved for reel on his arm in front of VER Steve La Mac because he accused him of not being for real and that was his way of showing him they were serious. Yeah, I think there was definitely an element that contesting. I think I like yeah, I like it. I like that it's sort of it sounds heavy while still being on the Acoustic Guitar. You know, they've like you say that Nirvana unplugged vibe. Maybe that's and I do. I think the chord progression and the choices they've used, they're really does suit the serious subject matter without making it feel like too much of a depressing song. I don't feel sort of dragged down when I listened to it. It's still got that Mannix kind of upbeatness to it as well as in them. Yeah, I think that's where Sean's drumming is particularly clever, because he really really does a good job of bringing the song up. Yeah, you know, he just want to move to those beats and when we all know when you move you feel good, you feel happy, you feel and even if it's a song about really bad depression and, you know, feeling anxious and things, that you still going to get a picked a pop around. We know that releases and dolphins and makes you feel good, and I think that's a lot is down to Shan with his drumming. Definitely speaking about sort of serious subject matter, I'll play you a song now that you are familiar with, because what James himself or you it? So this is ocean spray, taken from their album know your enemy, which was written about James, isn't mother, who sadly died of cancer, and it's called ocean spray, literally after the the cranberry juice. Drink Ocean spray, because his mum had, you know, had it in her head that, as we are told, ocean spray is good for a, good for your inside, it's good for your body, good to help you heal, and so that's what they would do, sit and drink ocean spray together. So here's the track. In it it's easy to see, see to see only white work. It's easy to feel. It's easy to feel, but it's not good enough. You will know it's please stay away and then...

...we can drink some ocean, please. We can drink oceans. It's easy to breathe. Beautiful track. And Yeah, of course, I'm not sure if you aware, but that's the first ever James Dan Bradfield lyrics. So it's usually Nikki or when richie was still with the band it was the even split. But yeah, first lyric that James wrote. Yes, he told me this when we were in the Red Dragon Studio and I didn't know at the time because I'd heard it on the radio, mm, and I didn't know what the song was about and at the time I just thought that was a bit strange singing song about a drink. HMM. And then when I went into the studio you explained what it was and I was blown away. And then he taught me to play it well, but we didn't. I didn't do the middle bit because I didn't have time to learn it really, so I just picked up on the cords and joined in with them there. But that riff in the middle of the verses, in the chorus, that really heavy, driving rare that it's just like anger and frustration and sadness all rolled into one in those three musical notes and just driven and then it just goes almost some lights again it's like right, we've got to be really good now because this is all the time we have left and we're going to make the most of it. So come on, let's drinks, emotions, pray and let's shift that cancer and get it out, you know, let's try and get better. And then it all comes crashing in again with those emotions in that musical riff again, and those who have gone through something like living with cancer or had relatives of passed away, we cancer, you know what I'm talking about. It just crashes in on you and it's just so clear with the music that he had gone through that pain firsthand. Definitely. Yeah, very raw, and I think those, those angry bursts really make the song for me. I got that kind of chilled. That that calm. Yeah, the calm before the storm really, isn't it? And then we keep getting glimpses of what we know is around the corner. And then, of course the Middle Eight is Sean Jean more's fantastic solo on the trumpet there, which I'll play a little clip of now, which so, so full. Yeah, I mean it is Shawn's Auntie you, isn't it? Yeah, and you can hear all the emotion in the sadness in that trumpet player. Definitely, I think. Yeah, just again adding that at that point in the song you know, just to give me goosebumps. And the little musical trick that he's played there is just lagging ever so slightly behind the beat to come in. HMM, if it was on the beach it wouldn't have been as successfully. So full in morning in that's the right phase as it is, but to coming just behind the be just a fraction behind, and build it. Ah, it got me right in the yeah, yeah, and definitely the I would have that was the word I would use as well. Mourning, soul, full and morning almost has a funeral procession vibe without...

...being like that. It's sort of a little odd to that. And Yeah, very good, very simple. I like how simplistic the lyrics are. It's basically, this is what we are doing. This is how I feel about it. Less drinks emotions, brain and try and make you stay awake. Yes, in human clutching its straws. You know, we've all been there in here. But it's like yeah, so I mentioned B sides earlier. I'm going to play you what is one of my favorite Mannis B sides. It's called donkeys. This is a Ritchie Edwards lyrics. was well before he disappeared and it's from the gold against the soul days. So it's a second album sort of era. So here we go again. I've I've gone a little bit further into the song. So we're not listening to the INTRO. So this is part way into the chorus of donkeys, sidna. Yeah, hello, yeah, there's some really Nice, interesting twists and turns in that when musically, hmm. Yeah, yeah, I mean we've done quite a bit on on riffs and Chord progressions and Nice melodies and lyrics and I just wanted to pull out a James I and Brade feel solo there, as we haven't really focused on so allows yet and his vocals. I mean I just love the way it takes his voice into that falsetto but then turns it into actually know I'm singing and belt in it in my head in my chest voice really, really loud, you know, any kind of moves somebody singing. Yeah, yeah, you so did. It just sounded like you. I think that's a compliment. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean that vocal for me it's one of my favorite vocals, just that bit where he he kind of just let's go, let's rip with it, and then into that Solo I know he's so talented and I'm sure that was his white test. You you was playing. HMM. Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I mean I've introduced you at the start of this podcast as as Carol Bass Player, but actually I mean you play piano, you play a multitude of instruments, percussion, Bas rhythm lead and I know you teach guitar as well. Yeah, you teach. You've taught some. You know, you've told me about some of the young kids you've been teaching, you know, from age eight or whatever, that can play. So you know, for example, sweet child of mine better than you. You know you've taught them so well. I Oh, I love it when they become better than yeah, you know, I got students know bit well. The last year I haven't been able to teach, obviously, but some of my students have got in touch and US when they can come back. And Yeah, I've just had another student WHO's going to go on and develop her career in music therapy. Wow. So I'm in the process of right new university application at the moment. I Know University statements and I'm so proud of her that she's going to do this and I've got students have gone on and got their masters in music and it's just an absolute thrill when that happens. It really is. Yeah, and the best is a little girl who was six and she's got a few youtube videos out. We're here dad, who was a student of mine, has learned to play Bass keyboardly happen and they're making their own videos and... in a big sister is singing the melodies and how im and he's together and it is so sweet to listen. I mean, yeah, you've, I guess you've taught a lot of a lot of lead. Who would have taught a lot of Solos. What to you? Like that bit that we just had there in donkeys? What does that bring to you? What does that bring to a song in your opinion? What is the point of a good solo when it's placed like that? After that, a motive vocal where he goes up into the higher edgister and back down. Well, when he just launches into a solo like that, it just it becomes part of the the vocals, if you like. It's like an extension of the vocals. And because he's got that wailing at the ends and straight into the lead, just like one continuum. HMM, and you just want to sing it, while I do anyway, I just want to sing it and, you know, La La la in my head and really get to know it. HMM. And then that's how I learned to play. I love to listen. Yeah, and then I will pick an instruments up and I will work it out on the instrument and if I can sing it, I know that I can play it. If I can't quite sing it, then I know I've got a bit of work to too. Yeah, but good solo really really makes a song and it's inventiveness. At the end of the day. It's freestyle in on an instrument that you love and you just doing your own thing on it. And then you have to remember it note for note after because people want you to replicate it. I always say when you learn, when you when you do, when you're working out a solo for yourself, you've done it for yourself, then you have to learn it. HMM, if that makes sense. Yeah, learn it so you can do it the exactly the same every time. You every time you do it. You Cook a recipe for the fir you just inventor a meal for the first time. They have to replicate that recipe. That's all it is. Yeah, but you never forget the first time you tasted. Yeah, you know, we've mentioned my father a few times now and on tonight's episode, but he had a, you know, what we called world famous carry. You know, he traveled over to America as ago and and and given someone this recipe. Little but unbeknownst to me, I didn't know he'd given the recipe. so He'd never shared this recipe. It was just something he would throw together and then he presenters with a curry, you know, shove it in the freezer. We'd have it for a few weeks. Of course, after he died, I was kicking myself that I I didn't make him give me this recipe. So I went in his spice cabin. I just took all the spices home. Yeah, and I just kept making carry after carry, just putting in a bit of this, bit of that. It was close, but you know, it wasn't quite what. I'm quite right. And then, yeah, I know, after weeks of trying, a friend of my parents who lives in Boston in America, said, Oh, I've got it here. I made him write it down. So she she wrote hand hand wrote it for me and took a photo of it and sent it over it. But yes, like you said, when you taste it you know that that's it. Exactly the same with Hungarian lamb. HMM. I've tried so many times to replicate that. But one of really funny little story was I was going to swimming world for a while and I'd come up with a recipe for Kart and coriander's suit which I entered into their little competition. Ended it being published in the book and I ended it with a ten pound voucher and some lipstick. And then about a year or so later I was dating this person who asked me to go and meet their auntie. So all five and the Auntie said, Oh, I hears all about you. I've made a lovely meal for you, and she gave me Karrot and cariander soup and I tasted it and I thought that's just like mine. I said, where did you get the recipe from, and she brought up the swimming little book, and so my best did know it was me. That's brilliant. Yeah, but that's nothing to do with the Mannix. No, but you know, I'm sure they would appreciate that little anecto is Ironic, isn't it? So? Well, from one one great solo there to what I consider to be, I mean maybe a little bit Tang in cheek. Maybe I'm not a hundred percent...

...serious about this, but the last song I'm going to play tonight is the mannix dabbling with a little bit of a disco genre, so a crush genre. There normally do that kind of thing. Yeah, I think they're doing it a bit Tang in cheek and I appreciate the sentiment and I think they put it off very well. It has been slated by some fans as being like wire on earth did they do this weird disco track on? No, your enemy. Yeah, I personally really liked the track and I think the bass line is Great. Maybe not the best they've ever done baseline wise, but it's pretty down good, I think. So let me know. As a bass player, what do you think of Miss Europa discod answer disco. DISCO IS SHOE, a sack sucker, you can tell us, a rickon back, a base Ha. It just wants you to get you a little white hand bag out and stood big gold compearings, hapen dresses. So I do you think the mannistudent discre wow is different, and why not? Why not? I mean you don't hear the money, she can do whatever you like. Yeah, that's great. I loved it and look it was. Yeah, just imagine our solved that on the yeah, she's love that. Yeah, no, I like that. That was really good. I confess I liked it. It's I wasn't a big disco fan years ago, but it took me right back to the late he's. HMM. Yeah, I think that sounds that when it came up late he's early nine s possibly. I mean I think that album know your enemy was two thousand and one. So I guess they're just EMA lating an old and old sound of an old scene. But yeah, it works. It works. Well, not sure if his voice has cut out for the smooth swam like. Yeah, so he sound because it's James Bradfield's voice. But it works. It works fine. It's crazy. And what did you think of the bassline? It's straightforward, easy, little bassline, nothing too complex about it. And then it's simplicity. It's genius. But you know that that is one of the songs. So off the know your enemy album there are two songs that Nicky didn't play Bass on because he found it too hard because, of course, James wrote the music and James came up the bassline. That was one and the other one. You have to go away and have a little listens called watsville blues at. He did get to the point where he could play them live then, but it used to be when they played those songs live, they are to swap guitars with him. Okay, I'll say nothing there, but yeah, I mean he always, he's always been very, you know, very derogatory about his own the skills as a basis, I think every good he supposed not. Issues are yeah, he certainly improved as the Mannix have developed. You know, over the years as musicians, most musicians are a bit self deprecating any way. We always want to strive to be better than we were and we want to be like this personal that person. But I think at the end of the day, if you going to be successful as a musician, you have to be used to yeah, definitely have to be. And there's no point in its. Every point in developing your own originality... certain genres. That's fine, but be your own self within those genres. Rather than copying somebody else and trying to be like somebody else, because it doesn't really work. M But what can I say? You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So that's our seven tracks. Have you got a favorite? I think it's there's two. Is got to be designed for life. And if you tolerate this, what about the seven that we just had a little breakdown. When you're was it your meeking, your your tender and it tired. And when you're tired. Yeah, so I'm a bit tired. That's okay. Yeah, so I've got a terrible day. Your tender and you're tired as well. Oh, yes, yeah, no, you tender and you're tired. It's touched me a lot. When I first heard that, I thought that is such a passionate, gentle way talking to somebody, recognizing that they've got these feelings and they're understood. You know that somebody cares enough to understand them and to it's almost like if you down a depressed instead of say no, get over it, lifted to they cover up and crawl underneath there with them. It's yeah, those type of songs. You know the he's getting into the two favors somebody. Yeah, in a nice sort of carving and supportive way. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I love that song as well. Excellent. Well, thank you for your time tonight, Carol. That's been great chatting to you about this. Yeah, it's be nice if sally can come on and do a few things. Yeah, definitely. So Sally and Isles will be hopefully soon joining us to chat all things Mannis in relation to the drums and she's got some of her own anecdotes to share about Sean more, especially. Well, now I won't say it'll give it away. I can't do that. Excellent or thanks, Carol Tears. Hey by, Hi guys, this is Clarie, the host. Thanks very much for listening to today's episode. It's just a little disclaimer. I Know Sally Ann Isles, my grammar and very good friend, was build as being on this episode and we were really hoping to have her on. She used to play in Newbridge Kelen in brass band with Seawan more back in the day and also gave him a few little tips on the drums back when he was learning. So it would be great to hear about that at some point. But unfortunately, due to work commitments, as she can't make it on today, so watch this space. We might do an extra little part six of this bonus feature, so keep your eyes peeled. If you've enjoyed listening to the bonus episodes or to the season so far, please do leave a review on our facebook page or on our twitter page. Thanks again. I'm going to leave you with the song by my band Cutch, to finish off. Enjoy. I wanna stop myself from feeling. I'm not feeling to feeling. I've been. I've been going through a paper and I will follow some glass. I don't want to. I don't wanna leave you. It's cutting me inside. I don't know why else, so I turned. I wanna stop myself from wearing the child for you on my sleeve. So the time for sharing my cakes you and he's someone hand me. If from paper, I will follows. I don't want to, I...

...don't wanna let's cutting me inside. I don't know what else you do, so watcher and shake. When I don't know what to do, I's true to you. When I don't know what to do, I wanna stop these eyes from seeing everybody. But it's crazy. Stop the time for feeding someone else's the stay. Someone me. I will follow some grass I don't want to. I don't want to cutting me inside. I don't know what else to do. So join US next time when I interview artist Kyle. The goal.

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